"I don't want Politics in my Gaming!"
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support artists that make the art you want. don’t shit on the stuff others enjoy.
can you imagine fallout new vegas without the politics? og deus ex?
can you imagine fallout new vegas without the politics? og deus ex?
You picked games that were built around the politics, and especially in case of NV did it very well.
Let’s pick an example where politics are hamfisted and poorly: Last of Us 2. I can imagine a Last of Us without hamfisted politics, or actually, even better than that: I don’t have to imagine. I can just look at Last of Us 1.
As a great counter-example from another type of media: a significant character in the TV series Pluribus is gay. You can easily spend several episodes watching the series without even realizing that, because for the most part, it has no significance on the story. It does has some significance later on, but it’s portrayed brilliantly and without the hamfisting I mentioned.
I’m not opposed to politics, also when it’s politics I disagree with. I’m opposed to bad storytelling. Sometimes the line between the two is not clear.
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
You can tell what someone’s politics are by what they consider political.
I was astonished at some of the Steam reviews of Outer Worlds after playing it. People proper pissed off that their experience had been ruined because there’s a female side character with an optional side quest where she wants a date with another woman. Like how thoroughly filled with hate do you have to be as a person, to be fine with all the mass killing but suddenly get a moralistic high horse about a fictional character going on a dinner date you don’t approve of.
Sad that Steam are making a comment of their own by allowing those reviews to stay up.
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can you imagine fallout new vegas without the politics? og deus ex?
You picked games that were built around the politics, and especially in case of NV did it very well.
Let’s pick an example where politics are hamfisted and poorly: Last of Us 2. I can imagine a Last of Us without hamfisted politics, or actually, even better than that: I don’t have to imagine. I can just look at Last of Us 1.
As a great counter-example from another type of media: a significant character in the TV series Pluribus is gay. You can easily spend several episodes watching the series without even realizing that, because for the most part, it has no significance on the story. It does has some significance later on, but it’s portrayed brilliantly and without the hamfisting I mentioned.
I’m not opposed to politics, also when it’s politics I disagree with. I’m opposed to bad storytelling. Sometimes the line between the two is not clear.
meh. artists grow over time. and studios grow in the flexibility they have to message. support another studio that gives you what you want.
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You can tell what someone’s politics are by what they consider political.
I was astonished at some of the Steam reviews of Outer Worlds after playing it. People proper pissed off that their experience had been ruined because there’s a female side character with an optional side quest where she wants a date with another woman. Like how thoroughly filled with hate do you have to be as a person, to be fine with all the mass killing but suddenly get a moralistic high horse about a fictional character going on a dinner date you don’t approve of.
Sad that Steam are making a comment of their own by allowing those reviews to stay up.
Steam definitely has a libertarian streak, seemingly. I wish I had started switching over to GOG a lot sooner.
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What’s the political assumption of pong?
I mean I don’t disagree with the sentiment, the moment something has world building or a story or goals that relate to real life non-abstractly, there’s at least a political assumption, potentially an intentional statement. And people just don’t notice when it conforms to their world view. But politics free entertainment can exist, even if being able to engage in that entertainment necessarily requires some sort of engagement with real politic systems.
Though the most memorable games tend to be the ones very intentionally making statements anyway.
Glancing at Wikipedia for any Pong discourse. Found a likely example. Turns out Pong had a bug (read: feature) that contributed to its place as the first commercial success in video games. Quote,
the in-game paddles were unable to reach the top of the screen. This was caused by a simple circuit that had an inherent defect. Instead of dedicating time to fixing the defect, Alcorn decided it gave the game more difficulty and helped limit the time the game could be played [per payment]
So, Pong established the concept of video games systematically favouring the rich. Are we there yet, is that political enough?
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Glancing at Wikipedia for any Pong discourse. Found a likely example. Turns out Pong had a bug (read: feature) that contributed to its place as the first commercial success in video games. Quote,
the in-game paddles were unable to reach the top of the screen. This was caused by a simple circuit that had an inherent defect. Instead of dedicating time to fixing the defect, Alcorn decided it gave the game more difficulty and helped limit the time the game could be played [per payment]
So, Pong established the concept of video games systematically favouring the rich. Are we there yet, is that political enough?
There is still no political assumption in the game itself. Of course the moment you consider the means of acquiring it, everything touches on politics, even going to the forest and throwing a random stick, because forests existing is politics, them being accessible is politics, and you being allowed (or not) to throw a random stick is politics. That doesn’t make the concept of “throw stick at target for fun” political.
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Nah some people genuinely just want an escape from the world. Politics is a shit show right now and is always in our faces while many of us feel helpless.
If you want mindless slop, then play it. It certainly exists. Real art and proper storytelling makes you feel things and reflects the the world we live in.
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There is still no political assumption in the game itself. Of course the moment you consider the means of acquiring it, everything touches on politics, even going to the forest and throwing a random stick, because forests existing is politics, them being accessible is politics, and you being allowed (or not) to throw a random stick is politics. That doesn’t make the concept of “throw stick at target for fun” political.
Alright yes, if you deliberately draw a circle around a portion of your entertainment and say “this is the part I like because it’s not political!” that’s still a political choice, which is the entire point OP is making, ICYMI.
Everything is political, even the choice to isolate one thing as non-political. The fact is that politics are only escapable if you’re privileged to be the kind of person who gets to say “shut up about politics, I’m trying to play Pong!”
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Alright yes, if you deliberately draw a circle around a portion of your entertainment and say “this is the part I like because it’s not political!” that’s still a political choice, which is the entire point OP is making, ICYMI.
Everything is political, even the choice to isolate one thing as non-political. The fact is that politics are only escapable if you’re privileged to be the kind of person who gets to say “shut up about politics, I’m trying to play Pong!”
Yeah generally when talking about a thing you draw a circle around the thing, that’s how that works. My glass from ikea isn’t making any political statement or assumption in its design as a finished product (unless you consider presumed size requirement for a beverage container to be political, though inherently nothing about it even states its purpose, so even that is doubtful) the process behind its design, manufacturing, and sale very much is political as fuck though.
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Yeah generally when talking about a thing you draw a circle around the thing, that’s how that works. My glass from ikea isn’t making any political statement or assumption in its design as a finished product (unless you consider presumed size requirement for a beverage container to be political, though inherently nothing about it even states its purpose, so even that is doubtful) the process behind its design, manufacturing, and sale very much is political as fuck though.
Okay, well I’m drawing a circle around how much more interesting it is to talk about politics than whatever this was.
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What’s the political assumption of pong?
I mean I don’t disagree with the sentiment, the moment something has world building or a story or goals that relate to real life non-abstractly, there’s at least a political assumption, potentially an intentional statement. And people just don’t notice when it conforms to their world view. But politics free entertainment can exist, even if being able to engage in that entertainment necessarily requires some sort of engagement with real politic systems.
Though the most memorable games tend to be the ones very intentionally making statements anyway.
Pong represents the slow but inevitable march towards socialism
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You can tell what someone’s politics are by what they consider political.
I was astonished at some of the Steam reviews of Outer Worlds after playing it. People proper pissed off that their experience had been ruined because there’s a female side character with an optional side quest where she wants a date with another woman. Like how thoroughly filled with hate do you have to be as a person, to be fine with all the mass killing but suddenly get a moralistic high horse about a fictional character going on a dinner date you don’t approve of.
Sad that Steam are making a comment of their own by allowing those reviews to stay up.
How DARE you make your game try to reflect reality.
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What’s the political assumption of pong?
I mean I don’t disagree with the sentiment, the moment something has world building or a story or goals that relate to real life non-abstractly, there’s at least a political assumption, potentially an intentional statement. And people just don’t notice when it conforms to their world view. But politics free entertainment can exist, even if being able to engage in that entertainment necessarily requires some sort of engagement with real politic systems.
Though the most memorable games tend to be the ones very intentionally making statements anyway.
That's a false argument your are making here.
First : it's a TTRPG group. You can't have TTRPG without world building, story goals, etc.
Second : Pong is not a TTRPG. AFAIK.
Third : In case you don't know, people who tend to say "no politics in my gaming" (like gamergaters) actually do a very political statement as for them "being black" or "being gay" or "being a woman" etc. is often seen as "politics in [their] gaming".Sure, you can try to argue with the words, but it's not just words, they exists in a context and the context is that it's a fascist dog whistle.
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
“Politics” or “the way one sees the world”?
Because I’m pretty sure there’s a language disconnect regarding worldview.
A dev has their game reflect their worldview, and a social curmudgeon experiences political rhetoric cognitive dissonance, illustrating the incongruency and the fact that they are, indeed, a tool. ARRGHHH MUH FREEDOMS
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
Ghost of Tsushima:
A Samurai and several of his battle-ready female companions try to reclaim their island after Mongol invasion.
I remember thinking “did they really have female warriors and lords back then who called the shots and fought alongside the men? I like the message, but a bit of realism would be nice…”
And then our brave stoic rugged Samurai literally prostrates himself in front of his lord/uncle at every opportunity constantly grovelling and professing how unworthy he is and how he seeks only to serve, and then I’m thinking “oh yeah… the stoic Samurai is a trope, they were either small militias or snivelling arms of the state.”
So I’m okay with realism being bent if it means I’m not constantly questioning the values of my main character.
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That's a false argument your are making here.
First : it's a TTRPG group. You can't have TTRPG without world building, story goals, etc.
Second : Pong is not a TTRPG. AFAIK.
Third : In case you don't know, people who tend to say "no politics in my gaming" (like gamergaters) actually do a very political statement as for them "being black" or "being gay" or "being a woman" etc. is often seen as "politics in [their] gaming".Sure, you can try to argue with the words, but it's not just words, they exists in a context and the context is that it's a fascist dog whistle.
The statement was “every form of entertainment”. Tbh tho yea i didnt really notice it being rpgmemes so it wasnt super relevant, that statement was surely not just meant for ttrpgs tho.
I fully agree you can’t have a ttrpg without political assumptions
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What’s the political assumption of pong?
I mean I don’t disagree with the sentiment, the moment something has world building or a story or goals that relate to real life non-abstractly, there’s at least a political assumption, potentially an intentional statement. And people just don’t notice when it conforms to their world view. But politics free entertainment can exist, even if being able to engage in that entertainment necessarily requires some sort of engagement with real politic systems.
Though the most memorable games tend to be the ones very intentionally making statements anyway.
Closest I’ve got, which I’m surprised nobody has mentioned, is the very concept that entertainment is a worthwhile pursuit, and that we aren’t made solely to work. Pong serves no functional utility, which is a statement unto itself.
That said, it feels a bit like a cop out to me, from what that quote is supposed to mean. I’d be content to rephrase it to “any sufficiently complex entertainment has politics in it”. For example, I feel like this could almost certainly be said about stories in general, but I’d struggle to find the politics in many simple children’s books, besides “children should be read to”. Although the more I think about it, teaching all children to read was once quite political.
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Ghost of Tsushima:
A Samurai and several of his battle-ready female companions try to reclaim their island after Mongol invasion.
I remember thinking “did they really have female warriors and lords back then who called the shots and fought alongside the men? I like the message, but a bit of realism would be nice…”
And then our brave stoic rugged Samurai literally prostrates himself in front of his lord/uncle at every opportunity constantly grovelling and professing how unworthy he is and how he seeks only to serve, and then I’m thinking “oh yeah… the stoic Samurai is a trope, they were either small militias or snivelling arms of the state.”
So I’m okay with realism being bent if it means I’m not constantly questioning the values of my main character.
I’m not super familiar with either the game or Japanese history, but I found this:
It seems that women were regarded more equally prior to confucianism.
The page for the game says:
Jin’s samurai armor and katana are not historically accurate, with his armor based on that of the Sengoku period during the 16th and 17th centuries. According to Chris Zimmerman, one of Sucker Punch’s cofounders, samurai armor from the 13th century was “jarring looking” and did not align with players’ expectations of what samurai armor would look like.
Totally-not-samurai-looking armor:
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I’m not super familiar with either the game or Japanese history, but I found this:
It seems that women were regarded more equally prior to confucianism.
The page for the game says:
Jin’s samurai armor and katana are not historically accurate, with his armor based on that of the Sengoku period during the 16th and 17th centuries. According to Chris Zimmerman, one of Sucker Punch’s cofounders, samurai armor from the 13th century was “jarring looking” and did not align with players’ expectations of what samurai armor would look like.
Totally-not-samurai-looking armor:
Yeah I’ve made peace with what I want from the game, because period-perfect accuracy would be way too jarring to stomach
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
I mean sometimes I just want to take a break from thinking about it and larp as “The good guys” for a while
