And since when is losing your means to make a living a valid consequence for refusing a vaccine? The courts have said, in most cases, that it was overreach and shouldnt have happened. Those weren’t reasonable consequences for non compliance, especially when it was accompanied by harassment and derision, some of it by our own PM. Stop drinking the koolaid.

My partner’s 87 year old mother could be killed by Covid. We have all maintained flu/Covid shots to protect her.

You DO know that getting the shot didnt prevent anyone from carrying and transmitting covid, right? And you can still get covid even after vaccination?

The value of FORCING everyone to get the shot and isolating themselves really becomes questionable as we look at the long term effects: Mental health issues are way up. School age KIds lost two years of schooling and a lot of socialization skills. Drug use skyrocketed and we have a drug epidemic. Many seniors were severely emotionally impacted by not being able to see their families. Massive job losses particularly in the hospitality industry. Business closures. The division caused by the PM painting refusers as ‘bad Canadians’. Plus the ridiculous financial cost of the ArriveCan scam, paying for hotel rooms to isolate travellers, millions of vaccines that went unused, respirators that were bought at a premium and sold as scrap, to say nothing of the billions of dollars that were handed out with almost zero oversight MUCH of it completely wasted. Like the millions given to a QC company to build a pharmaceutical plant that never happened. And the rapid rise of inflation caused by injecting billions of dollars into the economy.

The Trudeau approach to forcing compliance cost this country A LOT and we’re going to be dealing with the fallout for many years to come. There was usefulness in the beginning but after two years Trudeau was actually saying that he saw further use for the digital app for allowing entrance into buildings and other access. NO THANKS, we dont need gov control over free movement and medical compliance.

Yes, I understand that it didn’t prevent us from catching it or spreading it. It did however, reduce the length of time we were sick. Which meant that since we were her primary carers, that she wasn’t without us for as long. Since it DID reduce the length of time and severity of our illness.

As far as all of the other gripes you seem to have around Covid, yes, I agree it wasn’t handled perfectly, but since we were dealing with a completely unfamiliar disease, we were working with what information was available at the time.

I don’t deny that in hindsight things could have been done better. But we should be judging the actions based on the context of the information at the time. Can we learn from the past and do better in the future? Absolutely. But I’m not going to hold every single Liberal at fault for the decisions of Trudeau.

What other definition of ‘forced’ is there, other than being coerced to do something against your will? Thats the definition of forced.

This was just reported this morning by a national press gallery media: “Incomplete figures show nearly 1,600 Canadian soldiers, sailors and air crew resigned, were discharged or faced discipline for defying Covid orders” Sounds pretty forced to me.

And recall what touched off the whole convoy event? The government insisted that cross border truckers, the same guys who had been praised for keeping our international trade going and supplying our stores for the previous two years were going to be FORCED to get covid vaccines. These are guys who spend all their time in a truck cab and barely interact with anyone except the guy running the forklift to load them in the US but suddenly, after two years, Trudeau decided that to “participate in society” as you put it, they needed to get vaxxed. It didnt make any sense at that point, still doesnt. Thus the spark that ignited a huge protest. We were tired of being forced to do things that no longer made sense even if they did in the beginning.

On the whole the convoy was fucking embarrassingly bad, but then again so was the whole idea of “vaccine passports.” It was good to see people protesting it, horrifying to see how obnoxiously “conservative” most of them were. Shouts of “freedumb” everywhere, protesters thinking they were being rebellious when the cops were pretty much on their side, nobody around with the guts to call in the RCMP (there was a process for it. They could have done it) and get rid of the fucking trucks, bullshit half-baked misinterpreted pseudoscience on the TV, vilification of the idea of any dissent, carefully stage-managed presentation of the output of bureaucratic panic and confusion from the institutions of government, each side of the often stupid controversies absolutely refusing to listen to the other. Destroyed my faith in democracy, basically.

Unfortunately, I’ve run into a lot of very average people who think the convoy was what “ended covid lockdowns”. They know it messed up Ottawa for a while, and feel bad about that, but are “happy with the end result.” The vast majority havn’t ever listened to those racist rants by the organizers, read their manifesto stuff, or read the journalism investigating their funding sources. Mainstream media never covered any of that in detail -probably because of how distasteful it was. They remember messy street protests, annoyed residents, and lockdowns ending. That’s it.

I agree, we were working with the info at the time. But thats what was so frustrating about the continuation of the mandates when it was clear that we were past the peak of infections and the gov STILL wanted to impose NEW restrictions. I think Canadians were pretty patient for two long years but there was no reason to keep pushing us past the point of reason.

And even if Trudeau’s rationale was that he wanted to push people to get vaccinated, the name calling and the derision for those who didnt want to was completely uncalled for. The FIRST job of a PM is to keep Canadians united and feeling supported not treated like they were bad guys. That was a jerk move on his part.

But yes, lesson learned. Unfortunately the ‘lesson’ here in Alberta seems to be 'you cant make us take a vaccine we dont want which is why we have a crazy high measles outbreak. Yikes. Thats embarrassing.

No, telling someone they will lose their job if they dont get vaccinated is not ‘forcing’. Its more like ‘gentle persuasion’ right?

Of course people were forced. There are quite a few cases in Canada where people were laid off or fined who subsequently got their jobs back after the lunacy was over and they won their case in court. The Democracy Fund has been fighting these cases all over Canada.

One example: https://www.ccpartners.ca/blog/details/the-employers-edge/2023/03/23/arbitrator-reinstates-employee-dismissed-for-just-cause-for-not-providing-proof-of-vaccination

Another: https://www.ctvnews.ca/calgary/article/former-westjet-employee-awarded-65k-for-wrongful-dismissal-over-covid-19-vaccination/

And $300,000 in fines for Amish people and liens on their property is not “forced”??: https://www.thedemocracyfund.ca/amish_community_overcomes_financial_barriers

These people can’t understand there could be differing viewpoints to their own, whether they agree with them or not.

Libertarians are basically Nazis in their eyes as ironic as that sounds.

Not sure where I stand on the vaccine thing.

I fully support science and think vaccines should be mandatory, especially during a global pandemic that we haven’t seen in a hundred years. Or, for example, measle vaccines before exposing yourself to others during a measles outbreak.

I’m also for body autonomy with abortion and what medical care and what vaccines you receive.

It cuts both ways.

In the end I think the failing here is education. Not enforcement. IMO most reasonable people would take the vaccine. The only reason reasonable people don’t is because they do not trust government or science, due to lack of education or understanding.

You know what the word “mandatory” means, right? In this one comment you say you’re for mandatory vaccines in exactly the scenario that the convoy morons were whining about but also go off about bodily autonomy. Yes, education is important but also we have regulations and laws because unfortunately we don’t live in a fairy land where everyone behaves themselves and considers the well-being of their fellow person.

It doesn’t cut both ways equally, not by a long shot.

I understand why those people were unhappy about all the covid restrictions but yeah I know that the organizers were racist and that makes the whole thing questionable at best.

I somewhat agree. But how do you make laws for forcing people to get vaccines, yet let them choose to have abortions, or refuse medical care, or eat garbage food, drink alcohol etc, for example?

Like, how would you define that on a societal level, and also have exceptions for situations the law doesnt account for?

These things dont exactly equate, but I can see why being forced by the government to get a vaccines irks some people. I think it all stems from them thinking that vaccines harm you, or cause autism or whatever. That and that we haven’t had a truly deadly pandemic or disease going around in living memory (thanks again to science and our predecessors getting vaccinated) that would cause people to prefer the vaccine over say polio. People are losing fath in institutions and we are not educating our children with critical thinking enough.

The wholesale adoption of pandemic rules was really wearing thin by the time the convoy took place. When Trudeau gave the interview where he called them racist and other things it really felt tone deaf to me. I know I’m not alone in neither welcoming them nor pretending I didn’t understand their frustration. I was not a fan of their tactics but I mean only in Ottawa could a protest pit truckers loudly partying on Parliament Hill against residents who were mostly complaining about the noise.

for stupid decisions that endanger others.

Sure. But there are plenty of reasons people had for refusing the vaccine that arent stupid at all. Including my cousin who is a pediatric ICU nurse and VERY well acquainted with vaccines and how they work. She was required to take the SARS vaccine and it physically damaged her immediately, and she now has heart complications that started right after she took her shot. So when the health board said she needed to take the Covid shot she pleaded her case as her heart couldnt take more damage if it were to have the same effect. They refused to grant her an exception so she retired from nursing instead. Not sure what part of that is ‘stupid’ but there wasnt exactly a lot of understanding - Trudeau made sure the message was that anyone who didnt take the shot was ‘unCanadian’ and most likely misogynists and racists and dont believe in science. Which was actually a pretty asshole thing to say. And why he’s not only no longer PM but he’s completely disappeared off the radar because the Liberal party doesnt want to remind Canadians of his existence.

So, she shouldn’t be working in that field. Her job is to care for others NOT get a nice retirement. Man nurse streo types real.

So, we’re on a boat. It starts leaking with these mysterious finger sized holes. Most people start sticking fingers in holes to stop the water, but there are a bunch of people that are worried their finger might get stuck, or a fish might come and bite it or divine intervention will save the boat - and they decide not to stick their finger in a hole, and just for good measure some of the people that won’t stick their finger in a hole go and make a few new holes. You think that’s ok? For a bunch of people to, not only not contribute to saving everyone, but actually make the situation worse? And for there to be no consequences??

Well if that choice is so bad for you then maybe don’t make it. That’s how choices work. I can choose to inject myself with bleach right now, I’d probably die, so I’m not going to make that choice. No one’s forcing me not to make that choice no one can stop me. That’s called consequence. It is beyond childish to think you should never face consequences for your choices. That’s not the same as being forced.