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  3. From ‘Elbows Up’ to Capitulation and Back | The Tyee

From ‘Elbows Up’ to Capitulation and Back | The Tyee

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Canada
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  • Z ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca

    I moved from Lebanon 8 years ago with my Canadian wife, and I was happy to leave that unstable region with the worst neighbours. Alas, I’m fated to live next to terrible neighbours again. I hope Canada will strengthen the relations with the rest of the world, and never turn to the US again. And as an anti-capitalist and anti-facist, I hope Canada does not become like the US.

    G This user is from outside of this forum
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    guyincognito@lemmy.ca
    wrote on last edited by
    #26

    I mean, look on the bright side. At least the unhinged fascists to the south aren’t bombing us right now, unlike Lebanon’s case. It’s not ‘out of the frying pan, into the fire’, it’s ‘out of the frying pan, into a different, less hot frying pan’. Could be worse!

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    • G guyincognito@lemmy.ca

      I mean, look on the bright side. At least the unhinged fascists to the south aren’t bombing us right now, unlike Lebanon’s case. It’s not ‘out of the frying pan, into the fire’, it’s ‘out of the frying pan, into a different, less hot frying pan’. Could be worse!

      Z This user is from outside of this forum
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      ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca
      wrote on last edited by
      #27

      For now. If not militarily, they might get us politically by turning our politicians into their fashion, and thus take control of us.

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      • M mongostein@lemmy.ca

        I’m not saying we should have a similarly sized military. I’m saying it’s a bad idea to tell your neighbour tyrant directly to fuck off when he’s on a rampage, and that if our military was comparable then maybe you could expect him to say that.

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        kichae@lemmy.ca
        wrote on last edited by
        #28

        Everyone’s seemingly got this fantasy of walking up to Homelander or Mr. Incredible, punching them in the face, and walking away triumphant to… something. Nobody jerks it to breaking their hand on the superpowered jaw and then getting a hole kicked through their chest, even if that’s what would happen.

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        • Z ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca

          For now. If not militarily, they might get us politically by turning our politicians into their fashion, and thus take control of us.

          G This user is from outside of this forum
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          guyincognito@lemmy.ca
          wrote on last edited by
          #29

          Hell, they already had us, and we just didn’t know it. Every western country was in lockstep with the US, especially in foreign policy. Now the US has decided that soft power is woke, and everyone has to publicly submit to them. This could at least offer us an opportunity to break free, though the odds could be better.

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          • G guyincognito@lemmy.ca

            Hell, they already had us, and we just didn’t know it. Every western country was in lockstep with the US, especially in foreign policy. Now the US has decided that soft power is woke, and everyone has to publicly submit to them. This could at least offer us an opportunity to break free, though the odds could be better.

            Z This user is from outside of this forum
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            ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca
            wrote on last edited by
            #30

            I don’t know if you are on FB (I hadn’t used it for a long time but now I’m active again, especially after being suspended on reddit, don’t judge me 😳) but there’s a lot of Canadian posts asking if we are ready to defend Canada against a possible US invasion, join the army, that sort of talk. Which makes me wonder if our taxes are going to be spent on the military instead of our public services (mainly the healthcare system which is not doing too well). But honestly I don’t think we stand a chance against them, unless we form alliances with Europe. I don’t know I’m too hungry now I can’t focus.

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            • M mongostein@lemmy.ca

              Do people not get that he needs to play nice with Trump? Like what do you want him to say to the guy? “Go fuck yourself!”?

              Maybe if we had a similarly sized military….

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              Rentlar
              wrote on last edited by
              #31

              In hindsight it’s all water under the bridge.

              I wasn’t expecting Carney to be like the Ford and call him a pedophile protector, or to explicitly label the US as a military threat… But I can’t deny I was disappointed of how easily he was able to be a doormat in response to Trump’s sudden inexplicable gripe against the Digital Services Tax. And I would have liked him to drop the pretenses earlier, of hoping (beyond hope) Trump would pull back on his self-imposed tariff foolishness, by the mere virtue of Canada being a reasonable negotiating partner.

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              • breakfastmtnB breakfastmtn

                It was a moment of global clarity. Prime Minister Mark Carney’s speech to the world’s political and economic elite gathered in Davos this week described global realities, past and present, with a candour and nuance rarely heard from a serving politician.

                The message was twofold.

                First, Carney made clear that the world has changed, and the old comfortable ways of global politics are not coming back. Those who wait for sanity to return are waiting in vain. We are in a world increasingly shaped by the threat and the use of hard power. All states must accept that reality.

                Despite this, Carney’s second and more hopeful message was that while the globally powerful may act unilaterally, others — notably “middle powers” like Canada — are not helpless.

                By finding ways to co-operate on areas of shared interest, states like Canada can pool their limited resources to build what amounts to a flexible network of co-operative ties. Taken together they can provide an alternative to simply rolling over and taking whatever great powers like the United States dole out.

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                godoflies@lemmy.ca
                wrote on last edited by
                #32

                I think anyone who thinks in absolutes of saying he’s “flip flopping” is a fool and have no concept of nuance and pragmatism. Even more so after he gave that speech, especially f you didn’t catch the part where he said “such classic risk management comes at a price”.

                What we’re seeing, I believe, is risk management in action. The “price” we’re paying is likely every single piece of policy that is short term (as in 5-10 years IMO) detrimental. But can be diverted course when things improve. But that’s also up to us to vote for people that are principled rather than voting by emotions. The horizon of a government should be long term and not short term.

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                • D doomsider@lemmy.world

                  90%+ of every policy in every country in the world is written at the request of corporations.

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                  grey_maniac@lemmy.ca
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #33

                  Usually guided by McKinsey, Bain, or BCG.

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                  • Z ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca

                    Explain what exactly?

                    D This user is from outside of this forum
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                    discomatic
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #34

                    How every single person from your country is so nice! I don’t understand. I’ve never met a single Lebanese person that was anything but funny and sweet and kind.

                    Z 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • Z ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca

                      I don’t know if you are on FB (I hadn’t used it for a long time but now I’m active again, especially after being suspended on reddit, don’t judge me 😳) but there’s a lot of Canadian posts asking if we are ready to defend Canada against a possible US invasion, join the army, that sort of talk. Which makes me wonder if our taxes are going to be spent on the military instead of our public services (mainly the healthcare system which is not doing too well). But honestly I don’t think we stand a chance against them, unless we form alliances with Europe. I don’t know I’m too hungry now I can’t focus.

                      G This user is from outside of this forum
                      G This user is from outside of this forum
                      guyincognito@lemmy.ca
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #35

                      I got rid of it years ago, thankfully, but I’ve heard the talk. As it stands, we wouldn’t make it a week outside of a guerrilla war, and I don’t know if we have a strong enough society or motivated enough populace for guerrilla war. We could make ourselves a hard enough target for them to avoid if we invested heavily in expanding the military, but where are we going to get the weapons? America? They could turn them off remotely I’m sure. China would be a good option, but America might invade us right away once they found out we were doing that. It’s a big problem.

                      Even if we could get the Europeans to do anything more than write a strongly-worded letter, they don’t have much in the way of military might themselves. Frankly, I don’t trust them to help unless something changes, but the ticket is deterrence. We need to make ourselves a hard enough target that the Americans aren’t willing to try to take a bite, and it’s going to take a combination of alliances (we should ally with Mexico, since America is coming for them too) and armaments.

                      Regarding shifting social spending to defence, I think it’s a bad idea, at least without other major changes elsewhere. Part of our problem is motivation - we’ve had 40 years of neoliberalism telling us the state owes us nothing besides tax credits and we owe the state nothing besides paying our taxes and obeying the law. We’re already halfway to losing public healthcare, so we won’t even be able to fight for that. We need a fundamental paradigm shift to save this country, and I’m not sure if we have the will or the imagination.

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                      • D discomatic

                        How every single person from your country is so nice! I don’t understand. I’ve never met a single Lebanese person that was anything but funny and sweet and kind.

                        Z This user is from outside of this forum
                        Z This user is from outside of this forum
                        ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #36

                        You haven’t met enough i suppose. There’s a lot of shit people from Lebanon just as from anywhere else in the world, no matter the race or religion. I’ve met wonderful Canadians and some bad ones, same with US folks. I appreciate your nice words though, it’s positive, if this was reddit i would have been attacked by now. Thanks 🙂 stay good!

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                        • freebooter69@lemmy.caF freebooter69@lemmy.ca

                          I think we aren’t as powerless as you think and that we have both done something that seems small but is a step in the direction of freedom from those corporations. We have joined a platform not owned by them. We have freedom to choose and make our thoughts heard still. So elbows up into the jaw of cynicism.

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                          A This user is from outside of this forum
                          armchairace1944@lemmy.ca
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #37

                          I donated to Avi Lewis for NDP. I voted NDP before and going forward they are the only ones getting my vote.

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                          • G guyincognito@lemmy.ca

                            I got rid of it years ago, thankfully, but I’ve heard the talk. As it stands, we wouldn’t make it a week outside of a guerrilla war, and I don’t know if we have a strong enough society or motivated enough populace for guerrilla war. We could make ourselves a hard enough target for them to avoid if we invested heavily in expanding the military, but where are we going to get the weapons? America? They could turn them off remotely I’m sure. China would be a good option, but America might invade us right away once they found out we were doing that. It’s a big problem.

                            Even if we could get the Europeans to do anything more than write a strongly-worded letter, they don’t have much in the way of military might themselves. Frankly, I don’t trust them to help unless something changes, but the ticket is deterrence. We need to make ourselves a hard enough target that the Americans aren’t willing to try to take a bite, and it’s going to take a combination of alliances (we should ally with Mexico, since America is coming for them too) and armaments.

                            Regarding shifting social spending to defence, I think it’s a bad idea, at least without other major changes elsewhere. Part of our problem is motivation - we’ve had 40 years of neoliberalism telling us the state owes us nothing besides tax credits and we owe the state nothing besides paying our taxes and obeying the law. We’re already halfway to losing public healthcare, so we won’t even be able to fight for that. We need a fundamental paradigm shift to save this country, and I’m not sure if we have the will or the imagination.

                            Z This user is from outside of this forum
                            Z This user is from outside of this forum
                            ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #38

                            Well said. With the way things are going globally, climate change, AI takeover, I don’t know what to worry about more. Fun days.

                            G 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • R Rentlar

                              In hindsight it’s all water under the bridge.

                              I wasn’t expecting Carney to be like the Ford and call him a pedophile protector, or to explicitly label the US as a military threat… But I can’t deny I was disappointed of how easily he was able to be a doormat in response to Trump’s sudden inexplicable gripe against the Digital Services Tax. And I would have liked him to drop the pretenses earlier, of hoping (beyond hope) Trump would pull back on his self-imposed tariff foolishness, by the mere virtue of Canada being a reasonable negotiating partner.

                              M This user is from outside of this forum
                              M This user is from outside of this forum
                              mongostein@lemmy.ca
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #39

                              I mean, I would love for Carney to waltz in the white house, sock Trump in the mouth, and give him the Stone Cold stunner, followed by the people’s elbow.

                              But it’s not going to happen.

                              1 Reply Last reply
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                              • Z ziggythezygote@lemmy.ca

                                Well said. With the way things are going globally, climate change, AI takeover, I don’t know what to worry about more. Fun days.

                                G This user is from outside of this forum
                                G This user is from outside of this forum
                                guyincognito@lemmy.ca
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #40

                                At least it’s interesting to watch!

                                1 Reply Last reply
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                                • M mongostein@lemmy.ca

                                  I’m not saying we should have a similarly sized military. I’m saying it’s a bad idea to tell your neighbour tyrant directly to fuck off when he’s on a rampage, and that if our military was comparable then maybe you could expect him to say that.

                                  F This user is from outside of this forum
                                  F This user is from outside of this forum
                                  fourish@lemmy.world
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #41

                                  Canada having a military or weapons on par with the US would make them even more insecure. They like to play the all powerful big shots. We let them.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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