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Canada needs a crown corporation for vehicle production

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Canada
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  • G This user is from outside of this forum
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    grte@lemmy.ca
    wrote on last edited by
    #23

    And very fast trains.

    C 1 Reply Last reply
    14
    • P Pennomi

      In northern Canada, it gets so cold that bikes aren’t viable. Try biking a couple miles in -20C and black ice on the road before you make blanket statements like this.

      Nik282000N This user is from outside of this forum
      Nik282000N This user is from outside of this forum
      Nik282000
      wrote on last edited by
      #24

      People bike year round in Finland. It’s not the weather it’s the total absence of infrastructure and maintenance in Canada.

      1 Reply Last reply
      4
      • P Pennomi

        In northern Canada, it gets so cold that bikes aren’t viable. Try biking a couple miles in -20C and black ice on the road before you make blanket statements like this.

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        grte@lemmy.ca
        wrote on last edited by
        #25

        The north should be embracing ultra high density urban planning more than anywhere else. It makes sense to minimize travel times as much as possible with temperatures like that (or even lower). You could make it work if you plan the city around making it work.

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        • G grte@lemmy.ca

          And very fast trains.

          C This user is from outside of this forum
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          canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
          wrote on last edited by canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
          #26

          We don’t really have places to put them domestically, until we do a buttload of complicated and expensive land acquisition, and I wouldn’t want to try and sell HSR abroad built in a country that doesn’t really have much.

          G S 2 Replies Last reply
          1
          • R roo3d@lemmy.blahaj.zone

            Very convenient, for you, to ignore that there’s more than a single solution to the issue.

            If you build the infrastructure, make it safe, reliable, and more importantly useful, people will come.

            Distance also becomes much easier to deal with when you build usable neighbourhoods with working transit solutions mixed use neighbourhoods reduce car use because the cornerstone, now created and only a block or two away from you, sells your food, the train/tram/subway is just a bit further, that takes you elsewhere in your town or city.

            This isn’t rocket science, the reason Canada is so car dependant is that we cater our business to large stores with larger parking lits to satisfy car based businesses rather than anything else.

            You don’t need density to create viable transit infrastructure, you need a will to move beyond cars as the default and only perspective. You don’t need a universal, one size fits all solution (this is what cars are touted as), you need a solution that suits the environment that its created within.

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            kent_eh@lemmy.ca
            wrote on last edited by
            #27

            You don’t need a universal, one size fits all solution

            And I wasn’t suggesting one.

            But by the same arguement, bikes or mass transit are not a practical solution for every situation either. They ought to be an available and a usable enough option that people will want to choose them when they make sense, but they are also not a one size fits all solution.

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            • C canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org

              We don’t really have places to put them domestically, until we do a buttload of complicated and expensive land acquisition, and I wouldn’t want to try and sell HSR abroad built in a country that doesn’t really have much.

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              grte@lemmy.ca
              wrote on last edited by grte@lemmy.ca
              #28

              I’m sorry but I just don’t buy that. Canada built its original rail system coast to coast in the 19th century with a population of 4 million and a highway coast to coast in the 60’s with a population of 20 million. We can make HSR happen today with a population of 40 million. We just need some vision.

              C 1 Reply Last reply
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              • P Pennomi

                In northern Canada, it gets so cold that bikes aren’t viable. Try biking a couple miles in -20C and black ice on the road before you make blanket statements like this.

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                canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                wrote on last edited by canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                #29

                Or just generally anything happening outside of a dense urban area where bikes are fast enough. We actually do need to occupy the spots in between the cities where all the natural resources and transport corridors are. You should also consider people who are any degree of frail.

                If we want to move to public transit quickly, it’s gotta be busses, with moves towards walkability and bikeability where appropriate. Anything else will take decades of rebuilding our communities.

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                • streetfestival@lemmy.caS streetfestival@lemmy.ca

                  That said, with a changing global market in mind, countries have been more willing to get involved in the planning and development of national automotive companies. Mexico’s “Olinia”, for instance, is a planned EV line set to be led by a new federal ministry, with a focus on affordability. As noted in its initial press release, the target demographic is families and young people, with three models expected to cost between US $4,400 to US $7,400—significantly lower than other EVs sold in the country.

                  The idea is that a nationally led framework will aid in the project’s coordination, with production intended to take place across several regions to keep costs down. Government ownership will also ensure a reliable stream of investment and that the end product is something attainable by the average Mexican family.

                  Turkey is pursuing a similar project through its Automobile Joint Venture Group (TOGG), a consortium of companies with the support and financial backing of the government. The goal is to create a national brand of EVs, with some models already being available for purchase.

                  With Mexico and Turkey offering prospective templates, Canada need not reinvent the wheel in pursuing its own, publicly owned automaker. Only the federal government has the ability to operate a program of this magnitude by bringing together our natural resources, skilled workforce, and industrial capacity to create a sustainable and affordable Canadian brand.

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                  canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                  wrote on last edited by canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                  #30

                  Usually that kind of thing is a bad idea, and leads to the Bricklin.

                  If Trump insists on blowing up the integrated industry, that would be a rare case where it’s justifiable, just to keep people and machinery working on our side of the border. It also dovetails nicely with our local mineral resources.

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • pipes@sh.itjust.worksP pipes@sh.itjust.works

                    There are a lot of fine options indeed, but nowhere near the affordability they could achieve today IMHO. EVs can be made very cheaply and every month the price of LiFePo4 (the cheaper and more robust, slightly less dense type) batteries is going down. Very few small cheap BEV cars are available. A Citroen Ami is like ~8-10k€; that (very cute) thing should cost maybe half of that.

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                    canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #31

                    It’s not an industry with huge margins. There’s no way Citroen is making 100%.

                    It takes a lot of batteries, and with EVs they’re always playing at the edge of the maximum weight for a vehicle of the class, so just moving to a different chemistry might not be the silver bullet you’re thinking, either.

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • G grte@lemmy.ca

                      I’m sorry but I just don’t buy that. Canada built its original rail system coast to coast in the 19th century with a population of 4 million and a highway coast to coast in the 60’s with a population of 20 million. We can make HSR happen today with a population of 40 million. We just need some vision.

                      C This user is from outside of this forum
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                      canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                      wrote on last edited by canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                      #32

                      Do I really need to mention who was in the path of the original railway? That being said, a single, coast-to-coast line actually does make sense, and is one of those projects under serious consideration at the federal level. But, it’s going to compete with airlines, not cars. If you want to go from Regina to Saskatoon or Calgary to Drumheller neither that nor an ebike are going to help.

                      Have a look at just about any public works project around and how they go, if you actually interested in or care about this. You’re going to have to demolish homes and restructure communities along the way. It can be done, and it has, but it’s slow and terrible, and a lot of people will hate it. I would assume the trans-Canada highway reused a lot of existing road and still was like that.

                      B 1 Reply Last reply
                      3
                      • C canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org

                        We don’t really have places to put them domestically, until we do a buttload of complicated and expensive land acquisition, and I wouldn’t want to try and sell HSR abroad built in a country that doesn’t really have much.

                        S This user is from outside of this forum
                        S This user is from outside of this forum
                        Swordgeek
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #33

                        We could build two right now - one in Ontario and one in Alberta (parallel to QEII) - on existing land grants. Instead, we just keep making the highways wider.

                        C 1 Reply Last reply
                        4
                        • S Swordgeek

                          We could build two right now - one in Ontario and one in Alberta (parallel to QEII) - on existing land grants. Instead, we just keep making the highways wider.

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                          canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                          wrote on last edited by canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                          #34

                          Yes, it still is a good idea to do some. The QEII plan looks like it would be crammed in there pretty tight, but it’s worth it; then again, our current government is crazy and likes to blow up projects already underway because their cousin would have a view ruined, or whatever.

                          Switching overnight from building cars to rail stock is quite something else.

                          B 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • P Pennomi

                            In northern Canada, it gets so cold that bikes aren’t viable. Try biking a couple miles in -20C and black ice on the road before you make blanket statements like this.

                            S This user is from outside of this forum
                            S This user is from outside of this forum
                            slartybartfast@sh.itjust.works
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #35

                            Studded tires exist, alongside winter riding helmets and pocket heaters

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            1
                            • streetfestival@lemmy.caS streetfestival@lemmy.ca

                              That said, with a changing global market in mind, countries have been more willing to get involved in the planning and development of national automotive companies. Mexico’s “Olinia”, for instance, is a planned EV line set to be led by a new federal ministry, with a focus on affordability. As noted in its initial press release, the target demographic is families and young people, with three models expected to cost between US $4,400 to US $7,400—significantly lower than other EVs sold in the country.

                              The idea is that a nationally led framework will aid in the project’s coordination, with production intended to take place across several regions to keep costs down. Government ownership will also ensure a reliable stream of investment and that the end product is something attainable by the average Mexican family.

                              Turkey is pursuing a similar project through its Automobile Joint Venture Group (TOGG), a consortium of companies with the support and financial backing of the government. The goal is to create a national brand of EVs, with some models already being available for purchase.

                              With Mexico and Turkey offering prospective templates, Canada need not reinvent the wheel in pursuing its own, publicly owned automaker. Only the federal government has the ability to operate a program of this magnitude by bringing together our natural resources, skilled workforce, and industrial capacity to create a sustainable and affordable Canadian brand.

                              L This user is from outside of this forum
                              L This user is from outside of this forum
                              leastaction@lemmy.ca
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #36

                              I’m surprised there’s no mention in this report of the possibility of electrifying and developing public transit across Canada. There is still too much emphasis on individual vehicles, which are very wasteful regardless of the energy source.

                              P 1 Reply Last reply
                              13
                              • stillpaisleycat@startrek.websiteS stillpaisleycat@startrek.website

                                I don’t think we’re that far apart in views but we are very different in terms of who we think needs to lead the change.

                                I’m putting the onus on societal level changes in the built environment and acceptance of children and persons with disabilities.

                                You seem to be putting the onus on individuals to drive the change by personally overcoming barriers.

                                You are proudly talking about how you personally have overcome barriers but not everyone can. With 30% or the adult population identifying with at least one disability, it’s not a small or isolated issue.

                                As is said in the disability community, not everyone has the spoons and certainly not every day. Don’t shame others for what they may not be able to accomplish that you can.

                                The 15 minute journey problem is primarily evidence of a problem with where stores and services are located in relation to residences.

                                Affordability notwithstanding, bike and public transit as a person with visual, hearing or mobility limitations remain deeply challenging in most communities.

                                Wonderful that your children and grandchildren have been able to meet expectations or haven’t faced needs that couldn’t be accommodated. Most persons or families experiencing disabilities wouldn’t have your experience or might put their limited spoons to other priorities.

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                                showroom7561@lemmy.ca
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #37

                                I don’t think we’re that far apart in views but we are very different in terms of who we think needs to lead the change.

                                I’m putting the onus on societal level changes in the built environment and acceptance of children and persons with disabilities.

                                You seem to be putting the onus on individuals to drive the change by personally overcoming barriers.

                                I think that both can co-exist, especially if you want to accelerate progress.

                                It is a shame that a great deal of the population is simply “ignored” or at least, treated as second-class, and I’m always pushing local council members, and the Regional office my municipality is in, to improve accessibility and equity for these minority groups.

                                It’s not easy, mostly because change on a societal level can take years or decades, and I don’t have enough time to wait for that.

                                So, I have to empower myself whenever and wherever possible. And yes, I completely understand that not everyone is in the position to do that. I don’t want to undermine or downplay their struggles or needs.

                                I do acknowledge these challenges that you have brought up, and I strongly believe that having more options available for moving people is better than having limited options.

                                But my point specifically is addressing the millions of single-occupancy, short trip rides, initiated by healthy individuals. These people dominate the roadways and we really need to persuade them to get out of their cars, for everyone’s sake. And the more who do, the faster infrastructure will be built that can accommodate all needs, for all ages.

                                City planners (at least where I live) seem to really lean on the motto that: “we build where the demand is”. And even though it’s painfully obvious that demand will remain low for cycling and pedestrian infrastructure if people feel unsafe, or unable to access certain infrastructure, anyone who is able to “just do it”, will have an impact on the decisions of city planners moving forward.

                                It’s maddening when I see communities where their elderly are quite literally forced to walk on the road, because no sidewalks exist. How the hell does anyone find it OK to have enough space to park idle vehicles, but not enough for kids and elderly?

                                Thanks for the thoughtful conversation. I hope that you and yours have a wonderful day.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                1
                                • L leastaction@lemmy.ca

                                  I’m surprised there’s no mention in this report of the possibility of electrifying and developing public transit across Canada. There is still too much emphasis on individual vehicles, which are very wasteful regardless of the energy source.

                                  P This user is from outside of this forum
                                  P This user is from outside of this forum
                                  programmingsocks@pawb.social
                                  wrote on last edited by programmingsocks@pawb.social
                                  #38

                                  Agreed. The fundamental problem with cars has nothing to do with oil or climate change. It’s that building a city around cars will ALWAYS fuck up your city in the long run, because cars and roads just take up too much physical space, and you just can’t make them any more space efficient.

                                  Diagram stolen from here, original source NACTO 1000013852

                                  I can’t emphasize enough that this has nothing to do with altruism. Your city will suck if you build it for cars because nobody will want to go anywhere due to it all being far apart and accessible by car. Some people make the argument that we need to move away because of the climate, and I agree, but I just don’t think it’s a very convincing argument.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  3
                                  • C canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org

                                    Do I really need to mention who was in the path of the original railway? That being said, a single, coast-to-coast line actually does make sense, and is one of those projects under serious consideration at the federal level. But, it’s going to compete with airlines, not cars. If you want to go from Regina to Saskatoon or Calgary to Drumheller neither that nor an ebike are going to help.

                                    Have a look at just about any public works project around and how they go, if you actually interested in or care about this. You’re going to have to demolish homes and restructure communities along the way. It can be done, and it has, but it’s slow and terrible, and a lot of people will hate it. I would assume the trans-Canada highway reused a lot of existing road and still was like that.

                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    bcsven@lemmy.ca
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #39

                                    Vancouver area is expanding the skytrain, its not HSR, but it will make the 60km commute a breeze. And my one coworker drives 5 hours from his residence to Vancouver area every few weeks. So a rail route would compete with a car. There is a plane route, but with getting to airport, security and waiting or delays, driving is a more pleasant option.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    1
                                    • C canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org

                                      Yes, it still is a good idea to do some. The QEII plan looks like it would be crammed in there pretty tight, but it’s worth it; then again, our current government is crazy and likes to blow up projects already underway because their cousin would have a view ruined, or whatever.

                                      Switching overnight from building cars to rail stock is quite something else.

                                      B This user is from outside of this forum
                                      B This user is from outside of this forum
                                      bcsven@lemmy.ca
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #40

                                      I was in Calgary or Edmonton, I forget it was a work trip blur. The train was right down the middle of the road. You could reach out your car window and touch it. If you want something there are ways to make it fit

                                      C 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • streetfestival@lemmy.caS streetfestival@lemmy.ca

                                        That said, with a changing global market in mind, countries have been more willing to get involved in the planning and development of national automotive companies. Mexico’s “Olinia”, for instance, is a planned EV line set to be led by a new federal ministry, with a focus on affordability. As noted in its initial press release, the target demographic is families and young people, with three models expected to cost between US $4,400 to US $7,400—significantly lower than other EVs sold in the country.

                                        The idea is that a nationally led framework will aid in the project’s coordination, with production intended to take place across several regions to keep costs down. Government ownership will also ensure a reliable stream of investment and that the end product is something attainable by the average Mexican family.

                                        Turkey is pursuing a similar project through its Automobile Joint Venture Group (TOGG), a consortium of companies with the support and financial backing of the government. The goal is to create a national brand of EVs, with some models already being available for purchase.

                                        With Mexico and Turkey offering prospective templates, Canada need not reinvent the wheel in pursuing its own, publicly owned automaker. Only the federal government has the ability to operate a program of this magnitude by bringing together our natural resources, skilled workforce, and industrial capacity to create a sustainable and affordable Canadian brand.

                                        I This user is from outside of this forum
                                        I This user is from outside of this forum
                                        immersivematthew@sh.itjust.works
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #41

                                        I disagree. Robots are the future as robots will make more robots to make everything including cars. We need to be robot independent.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        1
                                        • P Pennomi

                                          In northern Canada, it gets so cold that bikes aren’t viable. Try biking a couple miles in -20C and black ice on the road before you make blanket statements like this.

                                          B This user is from outside of this forum
                                          B This user is from outside of this forum
                                          bcsven@lemmy.ca
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #42

                                          I rode -20 on a bicycle regularly. You wear layers, because after a few KM you are making so much body heat you have to unzip for airflow.

                                          You moisturize your skin before going out to prevent wind chap.

                                          You buy a snowmobile style breather, it warms the air coming in by pulling it through a flap down by your neck.

                                          You buy Schwalbe Snow studded tires, they have tungsten carbide studs in various arrangement. (I rode up hills that cars where all stuck at the bottom spiining tires)

                                          Ebikes would do all this too, but you need a plugin vest heater and heated hand grips like after marjet motorcycles acceasories

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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