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Wandering Adventure Party

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  3. Cyclists may be right to run stop signs and red lights. Here’s why

Cyclists may be right to run stop signs and red lights. Here’s why

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  • kevincox@lemmy.mlK kevincox@lemmy.ml

    How is this faulty? The degree of damage is incredibly relevant. We don’t make everything that could ever cause damage illegal, because we have nothing left. Laws are a balancing act of pros and cons to society.

    A car has far less visibility (they are inside a box with a few windows) will will do far more damage if they hit someone. A cyclist has dramatically better visibility (they have basically an unobstructed 180° view) and especially when going slow is very unlikely to cause significant damage (posing risk of significant harm only the the most frail and elderly).

    If not requiring complete stops for cyclists leads to 1% more cyclists on the road (because their travel is easier) it almost certainly causes less harm overall due to how dangerous cars are and also their indirect health effects (both inactivity when driving and the pollution).

    So no, the logic isn’t faulty at all and probably one of the most important arguments.

    G This user is from outside of this forum
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    grabthar@lemmy.world
    wrote on last edited by
    #32

    It’s a faulty argument because it only considers the damage caused by the bike hitting something, not the consequences of other vehicles with the right of way making emergency maneuvers to avoid smearing the idiot who ran the stop. This guy has been sitting on his tenured ass and smelling his own farts for too long.

    G M 2 Replies Last reply
    2
    • G grabthar@lemmy.world

      It’s a faulty argument because it only considers the damage caused by the bike hitting something, not the consequences of other vehicles with the right of way making emergency maneuvers to avoid smearing the idiot who ran the stop. This guy has been sitting on his tenured ass and smelling his own farts for too long.

      G This user is from outside of this forum
      G This user is from outside of this forum
      glibg@lemmy.ca
      wrote on last edited by
      #33

      Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

      It would still be illegal for a cyclist to roll through a 4 way stop if it wasn’t their turn. My understanding is that they can only treat it as a yield if they have the right of way. Which makes sense.

      Ideally cyclists would have their own dedicated infrastructure but until then we need to share the road.

      1 Reply Last reply
      2
      • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

        The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

        Relevance:

        In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

        Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

        Excerpts:

        Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

        For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

        As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

        The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

        On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

        Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

        Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

        Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

        In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

        It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

        F This user is from outside of this forum
        F This user is from outside of this forum
        fourish@lemmy.world
        wrote on last edited by fourish@lemmy.world
        #34

        Bike how you want, but if you fail to follow the established rules for vehicles on the road and get injured, it’s totally on you.

        N acargitzT M 3 Replies Last reply
        2
        • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

          The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

          Relevance:

          In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

          Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

          Excerpts:

          Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

          For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

          As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

          The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

          On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

          Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

          Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

          Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

          In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

          It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

          D This user is from outside of this forum
          D This user is from outside of this forum
          dubyakay@lemmy.ca
          wrote on last edited by
          #35

          As someone that has been living in Montreal for the past four years, which locale this article brings up numerous times, and biking about 350/365 days a year, I have to highlight a couple things to readers not from Montreal, or maybe even from the other side of the pond:

          • Canada doesn’t know what yield signs are. Stop signs are on every corner, which are mostly handled as if they were yield signs, but maybe not even that. And this applies to all traffic, not just cyclists.
          • Canada also doesn’t know what “right has the right of way” is. In some European countries if you come to an intersection without a light, a yield or stop sign, you simply give way to the vehicle approaching from the right.
          • The individual boroughs have a lot of disconnect between each other on how traffic is handled. While they are trying to have a unified approach, there’s a lot of Balkanization.
          • Much of the infra is dated. A remainder of design from the 60s and 70s that had patchwork applied to make it more livable. Things like green wave, automated traffic control or elevated pedestrian crossings and bicycle lanes at intersections are unheard of. Most lights are just set to a fixed cycle and have been operating like the same way for years.
          • Intersections, especially with new developments, will have very sharp corners with narrow sidewalk, with greatly reduced visibility.

          So that said, I rarely ever see the NYC courier style red-light skips between columns of cars by cyclists. Whenever I see that happen, it’s trashy people that seem to have little regard for anything, even their own lives.
          I do see cyclists regularly doing Idaho stops at full stop intersections, but it’s the same as cars. I think this is a traffic design issue and not an issue with driving culture or cyclists in general. Stop signs are simply a bad design, and this has been elaborated on many times.

          I also see a lot of people ride on the e-bike bixi fleet recklessly. They provide far too much speed assist with minimal effort. The same goes with the electric motor bikes with a throttle that somehow pass as e-bike just because they also have the option for pedal assist. However this is not a problem with the vehicles themselves, but rather the lack of education and handling. In most western European nations children are taught how to bike in traffic and adhere to traffic rules at an early age. I can attest to this as I have grown up in Germany, and in grade 4 elementary we had to get our Fahrrad Führerschein, which was basically an attestation of having a course completed, for children.

          Avid AmoebaA 1 Reply Last reply
          9
          • F fourish@lemmy.world

            Bike how you want, but if you fail to follow the established rules for vehicles on the road and get injured, it’s totally on you.

            N This user is from outside of this forum
            N This user is from outside of this forum
            nouveau_burnswick@lemmy.world
            wrote on last edited by
            #36

            Who is it on if you completely follow the established rules of the road and get injured?

            1 Reply Last reply
            7
            • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

              The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

              Relevance:

              In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

              Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

              Excerpts:

              Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

              For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

              As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

              The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

              On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

              Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

              Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

              Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

              In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

              It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

              W This user is from outside of this forum
              W This user is from outside of this forum
              we_all_live_in_a_capital_i@lemmy.ca
              wrote on last edited by
              #37

              Permission to exercise discretion does not mean cyclists will blindly roll through danger. No one is more aware of the risk of cycling in traffic than cyclists. Riding defensively is a necessary state of mind. A rule change will have no effect on that.

              M 1 Reply Last reply
              13
              • F fourish@lemmy.world

                Bike how you want, but if you fail to follow the established rules for vehicles on the road and get injured, it’s totally on you.

                acargitzT This user is from outside of this forum
                acargitzT This user is from outside of this forum
                acargitz
                wrote on last edited by
                #38

                Give me cycling infrastructure of comparable quality to car infrastructure and we got a deal.

                1 Reply Last reply
                4
                • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

                  The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

                  Relevance:

                  In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                  Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

                  Excerpts:

                  Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

                  For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

                  As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

                  The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

                  On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

                  Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

                  Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

                  Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

                  In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                  It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

                  acargitzT This user is from outside of this forum
                  acargitzT This user is from outside of this forum
                  acargitz
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #39

                  This whole discussion is a distraction. The real solution is to have proper cycling infrastructure. You don’t need to reinterpret road signs if bikes have their own signs in their own protected lanes and protected crossings.

                  Y 1 Reply Last reply
                  16
                  • M monogram@feddit.nl

                    As a Dutch citizen: NO, stop at red!

                    Evkob (they/them)E This user is from outside of this forum
                    Evkob (they/them)E This user is from outside of this forum
                    Evkob (they/them)
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #40

                    The headline is misleading to what is actually being proposed; the Idaho stop means treating stop signs as yields, and red lights as stops.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    7
                    • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

                      The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

                      Relevance:

                      In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                      Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

                      Excerpts:

                      Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

                      For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

                      As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

                      The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

                      On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

                      Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

                      Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

                      Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

                      In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                      It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                      schmuppes@lemmy.today
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #41

                      You gotta ask “Why do we need traffic lights?”. The answer is “because of motor vehicles”, so I don’t think cyclists should be disadvantaged by something that is not required because of them.

                      A 1 Reply Last reply
                      12
                      • F fireretardant@lemmy.world

                        I think it is a little different given the physical demand of starting and stopping is on the person rather than on machinery. Adding say a dozen stops to what would have otherwise been relatively smooth speed on a bicycle will significantly increase the energy expended by the person cycling.

                        C This user is from outside of this forum
                        C This user is from outside of this forum
                        calcopiritus@lemmy.world
                        wrote last edited by
                        #42

                        The point is that it’s the same for literally every mode of transportation. Including walking. In fact it is more energy expensive for cars, since the accelerate faster, accelerate to a faster speed, and weigh a lot more.

                        Saying that the energy is spent by the person instead of the machine might not be the best argument, since on rich countries people actually want to spend more energy from themselves, and less energy from their car.

                        There are many other reason why bikes should be treated differently. But energy efficiency is BS.

                        For example another commenter said how it physically hurts stopping so much on a bike. Which is actually a good argument. I don’t mind wearing out my car as I do wearing out my joints.

                        F M 2 Replies Last reply
                        1
                        • acargitzT acargitz

                          This whole discussion is a distraction. The real solution is to have proper cycling infrastructure. You don’t need to reinterpret road signs if bikes have their own signs in their own protected lanes and protected crossings.

                          Y This user is from outside of this forum
                          Y This user is from outside of this forum
                          yes_this_time@lemmy.world
                          wrote last edited by
                          #43

                          Bike infrastructure isn’t going to be possible everywhere. Idaho stop makes cycling better everywhere.

                          acargitzT 1 Reply Last reply
                          9
                          • M monogram@feddit.nl

                            As a Dutch citizen: NO, stop at red!

                            T This user is from outside of this forum
                            T This user is from outside of this forum
                            treczoks@lemmy.world
                            wrote last edited by
                            #44

                            As if any Dutch cyclist would adhere to any traffic rules. The only thing in traffic that bikers in Rotterdam seem to respect is the tram. Anything else, be it signs or traffic lights, is treated as “decorative” or “optional”.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            1
                            • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

                              The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

                              Relevance:

                              In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                              Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

                              Excerpts:

                              Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

                              For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

                              As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

                              The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

                              On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

                              Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

                              Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

                              Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

                              In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                              It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

                              C This user is from outside of this forum
                              C This user is from outside of this forum
                              calcopiritus@lemmy.world
                              wrote last edited by
                              #45

                              The unfairness problem imo is a problem because many places don’t have exclusions for bikes. I’m not Canadian so idk if that’s true there.

                              Both cars and bikes have to obey the rules, even in situations where it is obvious that not obeying them would be better (for example running a red light in the middle of nowhere where you have clear visibility that there are no humans around).

                              And there are some rules that are obviously thought only for cars, so the bikes think that they can break them.

                              As a car this is seems as unfair because they can’t break the rules even if they think there’s no danger.

                              If the rule just says “this rule doesn’t apply to bikes” imho it would be seen as fair-er by cars.

                              M 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • C calcopiritus@lemmy.world

                                The point is that it’s the same for literally every mode of transportation. Including walking. In fact it is more energy expensive for cars, since the accelerate faster, accelerate to a faster speed, and weigh a lot more.

                                Saying that the energy is spent by the person instead of the machine might not be the best argument, since on rich countries people actually want to spend more energy from themselves, and less energy from their car.

                                There are many other reason why bikes should be treated differently. But energy efficiency is BS.

                                For example another commenter said how it physically hurts stopping so much on a bike. Which is actually a good argument. I don’t mind wearing out my car as I do wearing out my joints.

                                F This user is from outside of this forum
                                F This user is from outside of this forum
                                fireretardant@lemmy.world
                                wrote last edited by
                                #46

                                Yes it physically hurts them because it is them expending the energy and stressing their biological joints. Not a machine expending the energy and wearing out mechanical joints.

                                If someone wants to spend more energy on themselves instead of their car they can go for a joyride or something. I would bet that most people don’t want to spend extra energy on their commute just because.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                4
                                • Y yes_this_time@lemmy.world

                                  Bike infrastructure isn’t going to be possible everywhere. Idaho stop makes cycling better everywhere.

                                  acargitzT This user is from outside of this forum
                                  acargitzT This user is from outside of this forum
                                  acargitz
                                  wrote last edited by theacharnian@lemmy.ca
                                  #47

                                  I don’t care about “everywhere”. I care about cities where most of the cycling happens.

                                  S 1 Reply Last reply
                                  1
                                  • H This user is from outside of this forum
                                    H This user is from outside of this forum
                                    howrar@lemmy.ca
                                    wrote last edited by howrar@lemmy.ca
                                    #48

                                    The proposed change sounds plenty predictable. A car needs to stop at stop signs, and if you’re stopped, then you can also start again without worrying about bikes because you have right of way. At a red light, bikes have to come to a full stop, which gives them time to check if a car is coming or not. A car wouldn’t have to worry about this at all.

                                    Edit: It just occurred to me that you can have an intersection where the bike is faced with a stop sign but the car isn’t. That would indeed be a problem if the biker doesn’t come to a stop. Not enough time to react to a car charging past.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    1
                                    • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

                                      The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

                                      Relevance:

                                      In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                                      Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

                                      Excerpts:

                                      Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

                                      For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

                                      As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

                                      The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

                                      On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

                                      Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

                                      Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

                                      Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

                                      In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                                      It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

                                      PyrP This user is from outside of this forum
                                      PyrP This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Pyr
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #49

                                      I think the lawmakers here are maybe not considering all of the consequences.

                                      Yes a bike won’t be able to cause as much damage to another biker or a vehicle if they don’t stop at a stop sign and then hit one.

                                      Especially when compared to a vehicle hitting another vehicle.

                                      But those aren’t the only two things at a stop sign or intersection. There are also pedestrians crossing the street, often with aight telling them that it is safe to do so. People with disabilities like blindness, people with children, etc.

                                      What happens if there is a line of vehicles to the left of the bike lane blocking the view of the cyclist and they keep going straight since it’s a three way intersection, no road on the right so no vehicles to even worry about, and then a mother with a baby in a carriage steps out from in front of the vehicle at the front?

                                      Sure a bike won’t do as much damage as a vehicle, but it can still certainly do a lot of damage in the right circumstances.

                                      L M 2 Replies Last reply
                                      3
                                      • Otter RaftO Otter Raft

                                        The title is a bit clickbait-y. I went into this one feeling strongly opposed it. Afterwards I’m still not sure, but I get that there’s some nuance to it.

                                        Relevance:

                                        In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                                        Author: Steve Lorteau | Long-Term Appointment Law Professor, L’Université d’Ottawa/University of Ottawa

                                        Excerpts:

                                        Interactions between different users on roads are often a source of frustration, the most prominent being those between motorists and cyclists.

                                        For example, many motorists are frustrated when they see bicycles cross an intersection without coming to a complete stop, which drivers are required to do.

                                        As a professor of law at the University of Ottawa who specializes in urban law issues, I have studied various regulatory approaches that have been adopted around the world, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

                                        The uniform application of traffic rules may seem fair, but in reality, it can create a false sense of equality.

                                        On the one hand, the risks associated with different modes of transport are incommensurate. A car that runs a red light can cause serious or even fatal injuries. A cyclist, on the other hand, is unlikely to cause the same degree of damage.

                                        Furthermore, the efficiency of cycling depends on maintaining speed. Having to stop completely over and over discourages people from cycling, despite its many benefits for health, the environment and traffic flow.

                                        Treating two such different modes of transport the same way, therefore, amounts to implicitly favouring cars, something akin to imposing the same speed limit on pedestrians and trucks.

                                        Since 1982, cyclists in Idaho have been able to treat a stop sign as a yield sign and a red light as a stop sign. Several American states (such as Arkansas, Colorado, and Oregon) and countries, such as France and Belgium, have adopted similar regulations.

                                        In Québec and other parts of Canada, discussions are underway to adopt such regulations.

                                        It’s important to note that the goal of the Idaho stop rule is not to legalize chaos on the roads. Cyclists must still yield to cars ahead of them at stop signs, as well as to pedestrians at all times, and may only enter the intersection when it is clear.

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                                        betanumerus@lemmy.ca
                                        wrote last edited by betanumerus@lemmy.ca
                                        #50

                                        Basically (in a city below 50km/hr):

                                        If a car runs a red light, the life at risk is someone else’s.

                                        If a bike runs a red light, the life at risk is their own.

                                        So there is a difference.

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                                        • D dubyakay@lemmy.ca

                                          As someone that has been living in Montreal for the past four years, which locale this article brings up numerous times, and biking about 350/365 days a year, I have to highlight a couple things to readers not from Montreal, or maybe even from the other side of the pond:

                                          • Canada doesn’t know what yield signs are. Stop signs are on every corner, which are mostly handled as if they were yield signs, but maybe not even that. And this applies to all traffic, not just cyclists.
                                          • Canada also doesn’t know what “right has the right of way” is. In some European countries if you come to an intersection without a light, a yield or stop sign, you simply give way to the vehicle approaching from the right.
                                          • The individual boroughs have a lot of disconnect between each other on how traffic is handled. While they are trying to have a unified approach, there’s a lot of Balkanization.
                                          • Much of the infra is dated. A remainder of design from the 60s and 70s that had patchwork applied to make it more livable. Things like green wave, automated traffic control or elevated pedestrian crossings and bicycle lanes at intersections are unheard of. Most lights are just set to a fixed cycle and have been operating like the same way for years.
                                          • Intersections, especially with new developments, will have very sharp corners with narrow sidewalk, with greatly reduced visibility.

                                          So that said, I rarely ever see the NYC courier style red-light skips between columns of cars by cyclists. Whenever I see that happen, it’s trashy people that seem to have little regard for anything, even their own lives.
                                          I do see cyclists regularly doing Idaho stops at full stop intersections, but it’s the same as cars. I think this is a traffic design issue and not an issue with driving culture or cyclists in general. Stop signs are simply a bad design, and this has been elaborated on many times.

                                          I also see a lot of people ride on the e-bike bixi fleet recklessly. They provide far too much speed assist with minimal effort. The same goes with the electric motor bikes with a throttle that somehow pass as e-bike just because they also have the option for pedal assist. However this is not a problem with the vehicles themselves, but rather the lack of education and handling. In most western European nations children are taught how to bike in traffic and adhere to traffic rules at an early age. I can attest to this as I have grown up in Germany, and in grade 4 elementary we had to get our Fahrrad Führerschein, which was basically an attestation of having a course completed, for children.

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                                          Avid Amoeba
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #51

                                          Canada also doesn’t know what “right has the right of way” is. In some European countries if you come to an intersection without a light, a yield or stop sign, you simply give way to the vehicle approaching from the right.

                                          Coming to Canada from Europe some decades ago, this was a shock. The “whoever stops first has the right of way” is so much worse, it’s not even funny. It requires much more attention, visibiltiy, consensus, to negotiate a simple intersection… It’s crazy. In practice, half the time people end up sitting and waiting for the other to go. The othe half, the more impatient people just go first.

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