I read a post today about someone wanting to play an OSR game and then cooling on it quite rapidly because the GM presented them with a river to cross and they couldn't work out how to do it.

Players moaning about misty-stepping and athletics rolls.

Reminiscent of Chris Bissette writing an adventure for an MCDM magazine and editor reporting that it caused a series of TPKs because 5e players just walked into the river because there wasn't a 'pass river' skill.

I read a post today about someone wanting to play an OSR game and then cooling on it quite rapidly because the GM presented them with a river to cross and they couldn't work out how to do it.

Players moaning about misty-stepping and athletics rolls.

Reminiscent of Chris Bissette writing an adventure for an MCDM magazine and editor reporting that it caused a series of TPKs because 5e players just walked into the river because there wasn't a 'pass river' skill.

I read a post today about someone wanting to play an OSR game and then cooling on it quite rapidly because the GM presented them with a river to cross and they couldn't work out how to do it.

Players moaning about misty-stepping and athletics rolls.

Reminiscent of Chris Bissette writing an adventure for an MCDM magazine and editor reporting that it caused a series of TPKs because 5e players just walked into the river because there wasn't a 'pass river' skill.

An interesting phenomenon and to me it speaks of skill degradation. That would simply never have happened in the days before VTTs and lengthy feat-lists.

One of the big conceptual hurdles in RPGs is the idea that you're modifying a fictional world that exists nowhere except the heads of people at the table.

I'm not sure that modern D&D and its clones are helping newer players get over that conceptual speed-bump.

@Taskerland That just doesn't fit in my head.

It's only explicable if you are totally board-gaming it?

@Printdevil Yes. It's moving from board-games and MMORPGs into TTRPGs and expecting there to be a button on your character sheet that you can press.

@Printdevil Yes. It's moving from board-games and MMORPGs into TTRPGs and expecting there to be a button on your character sheet that you can press.

@Taskerland @Printdevil Seeing this post in isolation I thought you were complaining about a different thing I also complain about: players whose main experience is on roll20 and similar who have trouble grasping "look at skill on sheet, roll the dice, compare the numbers" as distinct from "click skill on sheet, click 'standard difficulty', read off 'success'".

@Taskerland @Printdevil Seeing this post in isolation I thought you were complaining about a different thing I also complain about: players whose main experience is on roll20 and similar who have trouble grasping "look at skill on sheet, roll the dice, compare the numbers" as distinct from "click skill on sheet, click 'standard difficulty', read off 'success'".

@RogerBW @Printdevil I'm reminded of when I started drifting back towards the hobby, I decided to run Mines of Phandelver and I was *horrified* by how bad an introductory adventure it was.

The first encounter has a load of Goblins attacking you, forcing you into mass-combat as your first encounter with the rules.

If I were to write an introductory adventure for a broad audience, I would start with the fundamentals of engaging with a fictional world.

It's like people who are incredibly resistant to not only talking in character but even somewhat abstracted communication with NPCs in the 'I explain to him that...' form.

These are skills that are basic and fundamental to the hobby and I think a lot of game design over the last 15 years has been trying to build scaffold allowing you to bypass the basic skills and conceptual elements of the hobby.

The idea that you can be in the hobby long-enough to be involved in playtesting scenarios for a magazine and have an entire group of characters drown themselves in a river because there's no 'pass river' skill is really worrying.

Those people probably have 150k followers on YouTube.

@Taskerland i do think it really boils down to "did they have fun drowning in the river, tho"

@vortiwife That is how I tend to run my Call of Cthulhu characters but the post I stumbled upon and the playtesters reports suggest that fun was not had.

@Taskerland WEAK (ON THEIR PART)

Is that a problem with people you actually know, or just random humans who are learning RPGs

It just seems to come out of such a different culture from my experience.

My experience is of course watching "The Eight Diagram Pole Fighter" by the Shaw Brothers. Which has the best gaming plan in it ever.

@RogerBW @Taskerland

I read a post today about someone wanting to play an OSR game and then cooling on it quite rapidly because the GM presented them with a river to cross and they couldn't work out how to do it.

Players moaning about misty-stepping and athletics rolls.

Reminiscent of Chris Bissette writing an adventure for an MCDM magazine and editor reporting that it caused a series of TPKs because 5e players just walked into the river because there wasn't a 'pass river' skill.

@Taskerland there's a lot of obvious things to be said about the dangers of dragon game's rigid, procedural aspects being forced upon people who don't choose them consciously, just don't know any better but I think it'd be worth investigating how much of this is reinforced and solidified by bad, self-taught GMing of people who just bought a D&D manual and maybe read some dungeon-oriented blogs and just ran with their assumptions borne of having played Baldur's Gate back in the day.

The idea that you can be in the hobby long-enough to be involved in playtesting scenarios for a magazine and have an entire group of characters drown themselves in a river because there's no 'pass river' skill is really worrying.

Those people probably have 150k followers on YouTube.