"I don't want Politics in my Gaming!"
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Yeah generally when talking about a thing you draw a circle around the thing, that’s how that works. My glass from ikea isn’t making any political statement or assumption in its design as a finished product (unless you consider presumed size requirement for a beverage container to be political, though inherently nothing about it even states its purpose, so even that is doubtful) the process behind its design, manufacturing, and sale very much is political as fuck though.
Okay, well I’m drawing a circle around how much more interesting it is to talk about politics than whatever this was.
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What’s the political assumption of pong?
I mean I don’t disagree with the sentiment, the moment something has world building or a story or goals that relate to real life non-abstractly, there’s at least a political assumption, potentially an intentional statement. And people just don’t notice when it conforms to their world view. But politics free entertainment can exist, even if being able to engage in that entertainment necessarily requires some sort of engagement with real politic systems.
Though the most memorable games tend to be the ones very intentionally making statements anyway.
Pong represents the slow but inevitable march towards socialism
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You can tell what someone’s politics are by what they consider political.
I was astonished at some of the Steam reviews of Outer Worlds after playing it. People proper pissed off that their experience had been ruined because there’s a female side character with an optional side quest where she wants a date with another woman. Like how thoroughly filled with hate do you have to be as a person, to be fine with all the mass killing but suddenly get a moralistic high horse about a fictional character going on a dinner date you don’t approve of.
Sad that Steam are making a comment of their own by allowing those reviews to stay up.
How DARE you make your game try to reflect reality.
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What’s the political assumption of pong?
I mean I don’t disagree with the sentiment, the moment something has world building or a story or goals that relate to real life non-abstractly, there’s at least a political assumption, potentially an intentional statement. And people just don’t notice when it conforms to their world view. But politics free entertainment can exist, even if being able to engage in that entertainment necessarily requires some sort of engagement with real politic systems.
Though the most memorable games tend to be the ones very intentionally making statements anyway.
That's a false argument your are making here.
First : it's a TTRPG group. You can't have TTRPG without world building, story goals, etc.
Second : Pong is not a TTRPG. AFAIK.
Third : In case you don't know, people who tend to say "no politics in my gaming" (like gamergaters) actually do a very political statement as for them "being black" or "being gay" or "being a woman" etc. is often seen as "politics in [their] gaming".Sure, you can try to argue with the words, but it's not just words, they exists in a context and the context is that it's a fascist dog whistle.
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
“Politics” or “the way one sees the world”?
Because I’m pretty sure there’s a language disconnect regarding worldview.
A dev has their game reflect their worldview, and a social curmudgeon experiences political rhetoric cognitive dissonance, illustrating the incongruency and the fact that they are, indeed, a tool. ARRGHHH MUH FREEDOMS
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
Ghost of Tsushima:
A Samurai and several of his battle-ready female companions try to reclaim their island after Mongol invasion.
I remember thinking “did they really have female warriors and lords back then who called the shots and fought alongside the men? I like the message, but a bit of realism would be nice…”
And then our brave stoic rugged Samurai literally prostrates himself in front of his lord/uncle at every opportunity constantly grovelling and professing how unworthy he is and how he seeks only to serve, and then I’m thinking “oh yeah… the stoic Samurai is a trope, they were either small militias or snivelling arms of the state.”
So I’m okay with realism being bent if it means I’m not constantly questioning the values of my main character.
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That's a false argument your are making here.
First : it's a TTRPG group. You can't have TTRPG without world building, story goals, etc.
Second : Pong is not a TTRPG. AFAIK.
Third : In case you don't know, people who tend to say "no politics in my gaming" (like gamergaters) actually do a very political statement as for them "being black" or "being gay" or "being a woman" etc. is often seen as "politics in [their] gaming".Sure, you can try to argue with the words, but it's not just words, they exists in a context and the context is that it's a fascist dog whistle.
The statement was “every form of entertainment”. Tbh tho yea i didnt really notice it being rpgmemes so it wasnt super relevant, that statement was surely not just meant for ttrpgs tho.
I fully agree you can’t have a ttrpg without political assumptions
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What’s the political assumption of pong?
I mean I don’t disagree with the sentiment, the moment something has world building or a story or goals that relate to real life non-abstractly, there’s at least a political assumption, potentially an intentional statement. And people just don’t notice when it conforms to their world view. But politics free entertainment can exist, even if being able to engage in that entertainment necessarily requires some sort of engagement with real politic systems.
Though the most memorable games tend to be the ones very intentionally making statements anyway.
Closest I’ve got, which I’m surprised nobody has mentioned, is the very concept that entertainment is a worthwhile pursuit, and that we aren’t made solely to work. Pong serves no functional utility, which is a statement unto itself.
That said, it feels a bit like a cop out to me, from what that quote is supposed to mean. I’d be content to rephrase it to “any sufficiently complex entertainment has politics in it”. For example, I feel like this could almost certainly be said about stories in general, but I’d struggle to find the politics in many simple children’s books, besides “children should be read to”. Although the more I think about it, teaching all children to read was once quite political.
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Ghost of Tsushima:
A Samurai and several of his battle-ready female companions try to reclaim their island after Mongol invasion.
I remember thinking “did they really have female warriors and lords back then who called the shots and fought alongside the men? I like the message, but a bit of realism would be nice…”
And then our brave stoic rugged Samurai literally prostrates himself in front of his lord/uncle at every opportunity constantly grovelling and professing how unworthy he is and how he seeks only to serve, and then I’m thinking “oh yeah… the stoic Samurai is a trope, they were either small militias or snivelling arms of the state.”
So I’m okay with realism being bent if it means I’m not constantly questioning the values of my main character.
I’m not super familiar with either the game or Japanese history, but I found this:
It seems that women were regarded more equally prior to confucianism.
The page for the game says:
Jin’s samurai armor and katana are not historically accurate, with his armor based on that of the Sengoku period during the 16th and 17th centuries. According to Chris Zimmerman, one of Sucker Punch’s cofounders, samurai armor from the 13th century was “jarring looking” and did not align with players’ expectations of what samurai armor would look like.
Totally-not-samurai-looking armor:
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I’m not super familiar with either the game or Japanese history, but I found this:
It seems that women were regarded more equally prior to confucianism.
The page for the game says:
Jin’s samurai armor and katana are not historically accurate, with his armor based on that of the Sengoku period during the 16th and 17th centuries. According to Chris Zimmerman, one of Sucker Punch’s cofounders, samurai armor from the 13th century was “jarring looking” and did not align with players’ expectations of what samurai armor would look like.
Totally-not-samurai-looking armor:
Yeah I’ve made peace with what I want from the game, because period-perfect accuracy would be way too jarring to stomach
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
I mean sometimes I just want to take a break from thinking about it and larp as “The good guys” for a while
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
I disagree, because typically it means someone is racist or sexist and just doesn’t want to see people of color or queer characters. Such people may still be willing to engage with the political aspects of their gaming insofar as they may join initiatives like Stop Killing Games or argue that game devs should be treated better, but they’re just bigoted assholes who can’t handle people of color or queer characters.
Also don’t mistake this as a defense of them. They’re deplorable. I’m just saying I don’t agree with the statement as written.
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can you imagine fallout new vegas without the politics? og deus ex?
You picked games that were built around the politics, and especially in case of NV did it very well.
Let’s pick an example where politics are hamfisted and poorly: Last of Us 2. I can imagine a Last of Us without hamfisted politics, or actually, even better than that: I don’t have to imagine. I can just look at Last of Us 1.
As a great counter-example from another type of media: a significant character in the TV series Pluribus is gay. You can easily spend several episodes watching the series without even realizing that, because for the most part, it has no significance on the story. It does has some significance later on, but it’s portrayed brilliantly and without the hamfisting I mentioned.
I’m not opposed to politics, also when it’s politics I disagree with. I’m opposed to bad storytelling. Sometimes the line between the two is not clear.
What’s-her-face being gay is like the least political thing about Pluribus.
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If you want mindless slop, then play it. It certainly exists. Real art and proper storytelling makes you feel things and reflects the the world we live in.
You can have a story without AI slop or politics.
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Nah some people genuinely just want an escape from the world. Politics is a shit show right now and is always in our faces while many of us feel helpless.
For some people an escape from the world is cute squirrel who can’t remember where they buried all their treasures. Others will cry that the squirrel is unnecessarily political because they don’t use he or she pronouns.
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I love politics in gaming, I loved Fallout 3, NV,4 (I still enjoyed it but to a lesser extent), Cyberpunk, and Outer Worlds 1/2. I love it when a game has multiple factions, I love when you get to really understand the politics of a fictional world, and I love stories involving politics.
Yes agree, scheming and politicking can make the game mechanics really work.
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For some people an escape from the world is cute squirrel who can’t remember where they buried all their treasures. Others will cry that the squirrel is unnecessarily political because they don’t use he or she pronouns.
Some people do make politics their personality and can find it in anything.
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Seriously. Every form of entertainment has baked-in political assumptions, and that definitely includes #ttrpg . You might choose not to examine them, but this is an active choice on your part, and you don’t get to pretend that your entertainment is “free of politics”.
Honestly, with how things are right now politically - FAIR!
Let me roll some silly dice as a silly little guy while I ignore the prelude to another world war.
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You can have a story without AI slop or politics.
I wasn’t talking about AI slop. With “slop,” I meant mindless games that don’t take any position on anything.
IMHO, the best games are ones that make you feel something or question something critically. You can have games that make a political statement and are fun to play. Helldivers, GTA, BioShock, Disco Elysium, etc. If you’re uncomfortable with the point that a game is making, then that’s on you (and is the point of OPs comic).
There are certainly plenty of games that take no political stance on anything that I’m sure you can numb your mind with. Just play something else if you are feeling too judged.
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Yeah generally when talking about a thing you draw a circle around the thing, that’s how that works. My glass from ikea isn’t making any political statement or assumption in its design as a finished product (unless you consider presumed size requirement for a beverage container to be political, though inherently nothing about it even states its purpose, so even that is doubtful) the process behind its design, manufacturing, and sale very much is political as fuck though.
You slightly moved the goalposts there. The assertion is not “Everything is making a political statement” it’s “Everything is political.” Your ikea glass reflects your social class, the international relations between where you are and where it was made. It may have been made by an oppressed person in some third world shithole (or even sweden!) It may even be a political statement, like a designer somewhere made it curvy because he thinks people are more likely to buy something with a “feminine” silhouette.
