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  3. Mark Carney calls for a 'Zionist' Palestine (yeah, he actually did)

Mark Carney calls for a 'Zionist' Palestine (yeah, he actually did)

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  • S slartybartfast@sh.itjust.works

    That’s circular logic, though. International Law is just a set of agreements between sovereign powers. It doesn’t spring from seafoam, fully formed. What gives any nation a “right” to exist?

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    arkouda@lemmy.ca
    wrote last edited by
    #64

    It isn’t circular logic because international law is what gives a country a right to exist. It isn’t any more complicated than that for the sake of this conversation.

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • acargitzT acargitz

      The last 30 years of Israeli state policy after the Oslo accords has resulted in facts on the ground (Israeli phrasing, not mine) to the tune of 700k Israeli settlers in the West Bank.

      As the various calls for two states invariably ignore the Israeli facts on the ground, and do not propose any realistic vision for undoing them, at this stage they are merely promoting the creation of a Bantustan within the existing apartheid framework.

      In other words, the israeli facts on the ground have killed off the possibility of a two state solution, where Palestine would be an actual state. This means there are only two options:

      A) a continuation of the apartheid regime of the present, potentially with a Palestinian collaborationist Banstustan, and with various degrees of Israeli perpetrated genocide and ethnic cleansing thrown in during the inevitable flare-ups of violence.

      B) a plurinational post-apartheid democratic state with equal rights for all nationalities and religions from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.

      I guess the third option is for Israel to self-ethnically cleanse the settlers from the West Bank, but that sounds even more outlandish than the supposedly idealistic option B.

      There used to be an phrase that Israel can be “large, Jewish, democratic, but can only pick 2”. Over the last 30 years since Oslo, successive Israeli governments, more or less dominated by the Israeli Right, and basically by Netanyahu, has forced the choice of “Large”. So now the Israelis have to pick between Zionism and Democracy.

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      arkouda@lemmy.ca
      wrote last edited by
      #65

      The last 30 years of Israeli state policy after the Oslo accords has resulted in facts on the ground (Israeli phrasing, not mine) to the tune of 700k Israeli settlers in the West Bank.

      Which is wrong.

      As the various calls for two states invariably ignore the Israeli facts on the ground, and do not propose any realistic vision for undoing them, at this stage they are merely promoting the creation of a Bantustan within the existing apartheid framework.

      Anyone who actually agrees with the two state solution agrees that the borders go back to 1967, and everyone on both sides will have a right to return.

      In other words, the israeli facts on the ground have killed off the possibility of a two state solution, where Palestine would be an actual state. This means there are only two options: A) a continuation of the apartheid regime of the present, potentially with a Palestinian collaborationist Banstustan, and with various degrees of Israeli perpetrated genocide and ethnic cleansing thrown in during the inevitable flare-ups of violence.

      B) a plurinational post-apartheid democratic state with equal rights for all nationalities and religions from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.

      The chance for a Palestinian state is not gone, and Israel is not alone in making that harder. Even if you ignore Israelis and Palestinians, plenty of other groups don’t want peace and sabotage it when it is close.

      Neither one of your solutions is viable, and it isn’t that black and white.

      I guess the third option is for Israel to self-ethnically cleanse the settlers from the West Bank, but that sounds even more outlandish than the supposedly idealistic option B.

      This is not helpful or useful in this conversation.

      There used to be an phrase that Israel can be “large, Jewish, democratic, but can only pick 2”. Over the last 30 years since Oslo, successive Israeli governments, more or less dominated by the Israeli Right, and basically by Netanyahu, has forced the choice of “Large”. So now the Israelis have to pick between Zionism and Democracy.

      At least you can admit it isn’t all Israelis.

      acargitzT 1 Reply Last reply
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      • R rumimevlevi@lemmings.world

        Will them surrendering will end occupation?

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        arkouda@lemmy.ca
        wrote last edited by
        #66

        Has fighting?

        R 1 Reply Last reply
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        • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

          Has fighting?

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          rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
          wrote last edited by rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
          #67

          All other occupations ended thanks to fighting. Are you denying palestinian right to fight occupation force

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          • R rumimevlevi@lemmings.world

            All other occupations ended thanks to fighting. Are you denying palestinian right to fight occupation force

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            arkouda@lemmy.ca
            wrote last edited by
            #68

            In what world is this “Palestinians fighting occupation forces”?

            Are you saying that Hamas is equal to Palestinians?

            R 1 Reply Last reply
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            • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

              In what world is this “Palestinians fighting occupation forces”?

              Are you saying that Hamas is equal to Palestinians?

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              rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
              wrote last edited by
              #69

              Israel is not an occupying force?

              A 1 Reply Last reply
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              • R rumimevlevi@lemmings.world

                Israel is not an occupying force?

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                arkouda@lemmy.ca
                wrote last edited by
                #70

                I am not wasting further time with you.

                R 1 Reply Last reply
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                • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

                  I am not wasting further time with you.

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                  rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
                  wrote last edited by
                  #71

                  Because you are a zionist under cover pretending to be neutral that has no more propaganda to spew

                  A 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • R rumimevlevi@lemmings.world

                    Because you are a zionist under cover pretending to be neutral that has no more propaganda to spew

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                    arkouda@lemmy.ca
                    wrote last edited by
                    #72

                    Whatever you say bud.

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • S slartybartfast@sh.itjust.works

                      That’s circular logic, though. International Law is just a set of agreements between sovereign powers. It doesn’t spring from seafoam, fully formed. What gives any nation a “right” to exist?

                      R This user is from outside of this forum
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                      rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
                      wrote last edited by
                      #73

                      This explain really why the question of israel right to exists propaganda talking point https://youtube.com/shorts/k12E7LuD2_4

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

                        The point of Zionism was to establish a Jewish state in Jewish homeland.

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                        rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
                        wrote last edited by
                        #74

                        Which couldn’t happen without ethenic cleansing and local people had the right to oppose the idea created by foreigners

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • S slartybartfast@sh.itjust.works

                          That’s circular logic, though. International Law is just a set of agreements between sovereign powers. It doesn’t spring from seafoam, fully formed. What gives any nation a “right” to exist?

                          I This user is from outside of this forum
                          I This user is from outside of this forum
                          ilikeboobies@lemmy.ca
                          wrote last edited by
                          #75

                          It’s just self determination

                          But international law is more like “is recognized”, if no one recognizes your claim then there isn’t much you can do

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                          • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

                            The point of Zionism was to establish a Jewish state in Jewish homeland.

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                            njm1314@lemmy.world
                            wrote last edited by
                            #76

                            Zionism is a fascist ideology based upon building an ethno nation states wherein those of other ethnicities are expelled or exterminated.

                            A 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • Sunshine (she/her)S Sunshine (she/her)
                              This post did not contain any content.
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                              canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                              wrote last edited by
                              #77

                              When was this from, and what did he mean by that exactly? The context matters.

                              He’s been way harder on Israel than Trudeau ever was.

                              L spacecowboy@lemmy.caS 2 Replies Last reply
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                              • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

                                Until the majority of Palestinians accept that Israel has a right to exist alongside a Palestinian state, there won’t be lasting peace between the two. An incredibly poor choice of words, but the point is clear to those willing to listen.

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                                canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                                wrote last edited by canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                                #78

                                I mean, we’re not at the point where they even have a say in it. They’re busy struggling to survive because Israelis don’t accept their right to exist and actually have American hardware to impose their will with.

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                                • K kaboom@reddthat.com

                                  The native Americans. They’re welcome to try to take it.

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                                  canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #79

                                  Ah yes, might makes right. Thank you for abandoning a pretence of the moral highground.

                                  It’s true. We’ll see how that goes over the next few decades for you.

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                                  • N njm1314@lemmy.world

                                    Zionism is a fascist ideology based upon building an ethno nation states wherein those of other ethnicities are expelled or exterminated.

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                                    A This user is from outside of this forum
                                    arkouda@lemmy.ca
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #80

                                    Why do other ethnic and religious groups exist in modern day Israel if they were all supposed to be expelled or exterminated?

                                    R W 2 Replies Last reply
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                                    • C canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org

                                      I mean, we’re not at the point where they even have a say in it. They’re busy struggling to survive because Israelis don’t accept their right to exist and actually have American hardware to impose their will with.

                                      A This user is from outside of this forum
                                      A This user is from outside of this forum
                                      arkouda@lemmy.ca
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #81

                                      I agree, Israel has become a major problem. That does not change the problems that exist on the Palestinian side. Things can be wrong simultaneously.

                                      C 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

                                        I agree, Israel has become a major problem. That does not change the problems that exist on the Palestinian side. Things can be wrong simultaneously.

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                                        canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #82

                                        Reading this again, I see you’re not a Zionist but just a person interested in nuance and the actual truth here. That’s good, the source is doing the thing where you cut out a soundbite and make rage bait out of it.

                                        So what’s the solution here? Both sides are human, and will harbour grudges and gravitate to ideologies that legitimise them. Peace has been imposed under similar situations before.

                                        What will happen is a totally different question. A successful and very ironic genocide seems most likely.

                                        A V 2 Replies Last reply
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                                        • C canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org

                                          Reading this again, I see you’re not a Zionist but just a person interested in nuance and the actual truth here. That’s good, the source is doing the thing where you cut out a soundbite and make rage bait out of it.

                                          So what’s the solution here? Both sides are human, and will harbour grudges and gravitate to ideologies that legitimise them. Peace has been imposed under similar situations before.

                                          What will happen is a totally different question. A successful and very ironic genocide seems most likely.

                                          A This user is from outside of this forum
                                          A This user is from outside of this forum
                                          arkouda@lemmy.ca
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #83

                                          Reading this again, I see you’re not a Zionist but just a person interested in nuance and the actual truth here. That’s good, the source is doing the thing where you cut out a soundbite and make rage bait out of it.

                                          Thank you for understanding where I am coming from.

                                          So what’s the solution here? Both sides are human, and will harbour grudges and gravitate to ideologies that legitimise them. Peace has been imposed under similar situations before.

                                          I think possible solutions get far more complicated the longer everything is allowed to go on.

                                          If I was given the power of decision I would have international boots on the ground, disarm all parties and security would be the responsibility of the international third parties, every single person who committed a crime must be brought before the courts and charged from all sides of this, an extensive deprogramming and education program to de-radicalize the populations, at which point each side will be given the ability to set up their own systems of government and be given more freedoms from the international community regarding personal defense as each state demonstrates its good faith in moving into the international community and following international law. Both states will be recognized by the international community at large, and I believe it is the responsibility of all Governments involved to fund reparations for the civilians who have been impacted or displaced, as well as a right to return for every single person.

                                          Now I know this is an incredibly tall, and even seemingly impossible order. At the end of the day this is the only way I see lasting peace when considering the long and bloody history of this conflict. As you pointed out peace has been imposed before and not lasted, but I think a big mistake is it wasn’t done correctly because it did not address those deep wounds and scars within the communities, or the radicalization present in the populations.

                                          C 1 Reply Last reply
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