You must not be Canadian. We DO have good social protection for anyone who needs it. I worked with street people in a major Canadian city for years. The only way you could go hungry, or without shelter or food was if you willfully CHOSE not to access all the support programs available. We have plenty.

My calculations don’t assume anything. I literally used age statistics, the Ontario framework for the payout, and net revenue of the Federal Government to demonstrate the cost of UBI. Find me more data, I will give you better calculations.

I don’t think you understand what it means to make an assumption. Unless you have true population data (as opposed to sample data), you’re making assumptions. True population data does not exist because we don’t have UBI in Canada.

You’re using the numbers from the study along with stats from past years to justify how things will look when you implement UBI. You can either assume that implementing UBI does not affect the distribution of these stats in any way, or you can assume that they change following a certain model. You do not adjust these stats in any way, therefore you assume that these stats will remain unchanged.

There is more than enough food from waste alone to feed every single person on the planet […]

If there’s more than enough for every single person, how does it make sense to say that that the cost UBI is excessive? If we take enough food to feed everyone in the country and just distribute them to each person to ensure that everyone is fed, would that work? The food is there, so we can do it. What if instead of distributing the food, we give everyone vouchers to get their daily food? Is that any different? How about we instead give them a fungible voucher (i.e. money) that they can choose to use on food or anything else? Ditto with every other need.

I don’t mean that renting shouldn’t exist, but that it should probably not be run privately for profit.

Why should you own anything privately? You dont need two cars, one should be seized and auctioned publicly so someone else could have a car right? Why are you hoarding them?

Because we live in a capitalist society thats why. There are countries that do what youre proposing but they are much weaker economically and people dont have nearly the rights they do in Canada.

And of all the places to rent, guess who provides the most reasonable places to rent in the country? Is is Blackrock? No. Is it a consortium of investors? No. Is it a commercial landlord in your city? No. Its ALWAYS the mom and pop landlords who rent out basement suites and houses. Get rid of them and rent averages go UP.

Hospitals have to be nonprofit here, so we can’t actually have shareholder payouts.

Executive compensation is public information in Ontario and you can look it up - often they’re paid less than Doctors in their own hospital.

EDIT: also, unit rates are set but the insurer (in this case the govt), so its not like hospitals can charge different amounts based on internal costs.

Choosing the right level of income is the key for UBI to work, it has to be enough to live and survive but not so much that a recipient can enjoy luxury. Most people like to contribute to society, being is social is how humans are so dominant as a species.

Most people will contribute to the economy if they can, because it supports ambition, better lifestyle but it doesn’t put pressure to worry about where today’s food is going to be, people take more risks, be more entrepreneurial, explore more curiosity, explore new ideas, people spend time on acquiring more useful skills.

A mentally healthy mind is not entirely lazy. Being lazy perpetually reflects a deeper problem that is psychological to some degree such as having no hope or not being able to Imagine a happy future, or feeling helpless. Mentally healthy people want to contribute to society.

Economy as a whole will expand, which will pay in turn for UBI. First few years of UBI might be heavier on tax payers of the old system, but in long term UBI will lead to better economy. Question is not who is going to pay for it, question is can people agree to pay more out of their own pocket now for a better future for everyone? OR are we doomed as a species by exploiting our own kind?

For those who do not believe that UBI is unsustainable on scale:

The idea of UBI: “Universal Basic Income (UBI) is a social welfare concept that proposes providing all citizens or residents of a particular country or region with a regular, unconditional sum of money, regardless of their income, employment status, or wealth”

There are 32,708,656 Canadians as of 2024 aged 20 or older according to population estimates.

Population estimates on July 1, by age and gender

Estimated number of persons on July 1, by 5-year age groups and gender, and median age, for Canada, provinces and territories.

(www150.statcan.gc.ca)

The 2023-2024 total revenues for Canada was $459.5 billion.

Annual Financial Report of the Government of Canada Fiscal Year 2023-2024 - Canada.ca

Annual Financial Report of the Government of Canada Fiscal Year 2023-2024

(www.canada.ca)

The article cites the experiment where the participants received either $16,989 CAD/year as a single person or $24,027 CAD/year. UBI is supposed to be the same payment regardless of any status, so I am going to use the single person amount for scale.

32,708,656 * $16,989 = $555,687,356,784

$555,687,356,784 - $459,500,000,000 = $96,187,356,784

Canada would need to make almost $100 billion more in revenue every year just to cover UBI, and that does not include anything else Federal revenue is used for.

UBI is not sustainable on scale, and there are better options.

Id say giving 68k in taxes on an average Cdn family income of 158k is taxed to death, wouldn’t you?

Not even the slightest interest in figuring out the truth?

Why would I, a single individual, need two cars? I’d be completely in support of one-personal-car-per-person regulations.

The best places to rent in my country are the buildings owned by the city. Even mom and pop are leeching income off the less-wealthy by providing absolutely no services.

We shouldn’t live in a capitalist society. It’s a bad system that leads to oligarchy and class division. Economic strength is meaningless when the economy isn’t in service of the people. Look at all the rights people in the US have. I’m told they’re euthanizing disabled people in Canada now because they’re a financial burden on the healthcare system. Capitalism isn’t helping anyone except the rich.

You do know that GDP and economy are different and every year that goes by our economy in Canada gets worse because of heavily stagnant wages and uncontrolled rent and housing prices? It’s not good, we’re just starting from a relatively higher point than many other places.

Also all you did there was compare private(large) to private(small), which isn’t anywhere close to the argument you think it is.

Explain it to me. Preferably with your own numbers, and assessments.

I told you earlier that I don’t have numbers. My assessment is that the numbers you provided aren’t valid and I explained why in the last two comments. You can respond to those if you like. Repeating what you’ve said word for word does not add any new information. If you don’t want to continue the discussion, that’s fine, but if you have insight on why my reasoning might be wrong, I’d like to hear it.

Since when could they do that before? I bought my first house in the early 80s with a low skill job but the definition of “house” has changed. Most people would not consider a square 1940’s 600 sq ft shack with asbestos siding and single pane windows on the wrong side of the tracks worthy of a house they’d want to own, but we did.

Why should you own anything privately? You dont need two cars, one should be seized and auctioned publicly so someone else could have a car right? Why are you hoarding them?

Because we live in a capitalist society thats why. There are countries that do what youre proposing but they are much weaker economically and people dont have nearly the rights they do in Canada.

And of all the places to rent, guess who provides the most reasonable places to rent in the country? Is is Blackrock? No. Is it a consortium of investors? No. Is it a commercial landlord in your city? No. Its ALWAYS the mom and pop landlords who rent out basement suites and houses. Get rid of them and rent averages go UP.

At least you had one. It’s probably worth half a mil today and out of most people’s reach.

Yes Im aware of the difference. I guess the issue is that I dont see the people who are not making it being the economies fault, primarily because I have 3 adult children and 3 adult step children between 25 and 39 and they are ALL doing ok financially. One is just getting by, the the other five are already making more money and living more comfortably than I did at their age and they’re doing it on their own, with no help from us. So I have a hard time understanding why anyone cant make IF they want to bad enough in Canada. The opportunities are here (2 of my kids are self starting entrepreneurs) if you work hard enough. Yes, wages are stagnant if you’re working retail at a mall, but no one’s stopping anyone from upgrading their education and getting a better job. Our immigrants do it, Canadians can do it too.

Actually it got torn down to make way for a Shoppers Drug Mart.

But you got me curious so I went back to my home town and searched for a similar house in the same area. Found one similar to it but about 15 years newer and bigger listed for 159k so Id say mine if it was still standing would be about 145k. We sold for 33k so its gone up 4.4 times in value in 40 years. But then again the Canadian dollar has gone up 3.7 times in value due to inflation in the same time period.

So, yes houses cost more than they did, but not MUCH more in that town in particular.

parasites in nature try to keep their host alive and happy for as long as possible sothat they too can live. modern capitalists are an exceptionally nasty parasite that actively drains and kills its host.

So everyone within your very close, related circle is doing ok and that’s indicative of the diverse country as a whole?

Wages are stagnant for everyone. I’m an architectural technologist and wages are absolutely getting worse year over year despite it being an important, educated, in demand job. The fact that you think I’m talking about mall retail points only to your complete failure to have a shred of empathy for the poor and for any kind of job you don’t understand. Also, retail seems to be pretty fucking important and shouldn’t be thrown aside and allowed to have stagnant wages either, you broken twat.