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  3. Rockstar co-founder [Dan Houser] compares AI to 'mad cow disease,' and says the execs pushing it aren't 'fully-rounded humans'

Rockstar co-founder [Dan Houser] compares AI to 'mad cow disease,' and says the execs pushing it aren't 'fully-rounded humans'

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  • 反いじめ戦隊A 反いじめ戦隊

    If he wasn’t part of the hiring decisions, I take back what I said. But creative directors do influence who gets assigned roles in a studio, and what tasks get sent to the visa’d. There’s nothing indicating he wasn’t aware the studio hired visa workers when he worked there. Accents and vernaculars differ. I doubt he was oblivious that roles he assigned to foreigners were not hired to be exploited.

    cilethesane@lemmy.caC This user is from outside of this forum
    cilethesane@lemmy.caC This user is from outside of this forum
    cilethesane@lemmy.ca
    wrote on last edited by
    #67

    If he wasn’t part of the hiring decisions, I take back what I said.

    So you have no idea if what you’re saying is even true?

    反いじめ戦隊A 1 Reply Last reply
    2
    • B boonhet@sopuli.xyz

      He was never the owner. It’s a 45 billion dollar company, his net worth is said to be like 250 mill. He was paid a very high salary since he was one of the original employees of that subsidiary, and given some stock in the parent company as bonuses, so he’s set for life and richer than most of us will ever be, but he never had any real say in the parent company’s decisions. Take-Two is known for being absolute scum. They don’t just own Rockstar Games, they also own the companies behind the Civilization series (which has Paradox-like DLC scumming) and the Borderlands series (remember when BL3 was Epic exclusive on PC?).

      Technically if you’d started at, say, Microsoft as a software engineer or other similar role when he started at Rockstar, and stayed there until 2020, you could honestly be richer. Same for Google, some of their earliest employees became billionaires from the stock options. The Houser brothers made Rockstar famous, but they were never ownership class.

      反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
      反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
      反いじめ戦隊
      wrote on last edited by antibullyranger@ani.social
      #68

      But even as a creative director, he was this oblivious to visa extortion contracted labourers?

      B 1 Reply Last reply
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      • cilethesane@lemmy.caC cilethesane@lemmy.ca

        So the union discord existed when he was there and he didn’t fire anyone involved. 5 years after he leaves someone else fires the people involved so… Fuck the guy who hired people and did nothing to prevent the discord server years ago?

        反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
        反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
        反いじめ戦隊
        wrote on last edited by
        #69

        I am not so sure why you are strawmanning my arguments. If he was aware of visa extortion practices during his tenure, is he a good director or a bad one?

        cilethesane@lemmy.caC 1 Reply Last reply
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        • alessandro@lemmy.caA alessandro@lemmy.ca
          This post did not contain any content.
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          paradachshund@lemmy.today
          wrote on last edited by
          #70

          Everyone’s talking about the mad cow part, but this is also a really excellent point:

          “Some of these people trying to define the future of humanity, creativity, or whatever it is using AI, are not the most humane or creative people. So they’re sort of saying, ‘We’re better at being human than you are.’ It’s obviously not true.”

          remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR 1 Reply Last reply
          76
          • cilethesane@lemmy.caC cilethesane@lemmy.ca

            If he wasn’t part of the hiring decisions, I take back what I said.

            So you have no idea if what you’re saying is even true?

            反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
            反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
            反いじめ戦隊
            wrote on last edited by
            #71

            Stop strawmanning?
            Are you saying he wasn’t involved in role assignment of visa extortion as a director?

            cilethesane@lemmy.caC 1 Reply Last reply
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            • 反いじめ戦隊A 反いじめ戦隊

              But even as a creative director, he was this oblivious to visa extortion contracted labourers?

              B This user is from outside of this forum
              B This user is from outside of this forum
              boonhet@sopuli.xyz
              wrote on last edited by
              #72

              Uh I’m pretty sure as creative director, he didn’t see anyone holding a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to sign a shit contract.

              Why exactly do you think they were being extorted before any of this? If someone worked for a company for several years, I’m assuming they actually liked working there. Before someone at Take-two saw that there were a bunch of people at their subsidiary who’d unionized, some of whom were foreigners on visas and some locals. Why is the problem for you not that a bunch of people were fired for unionizing, but the fact that some of them weren’t born on the island they were working on?

              反いじめ戦隊A 1 Reply Last reply
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              • B boonhet@sopuli.xyz

                Uh I’m pretty sure as creative director, he didn’t see anyone holding a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to sign a shit contract.

                Why exactly do you think they were being extorted before any of this? If someone worked for a company for several years, I’m assuming they actually liked working there. Before someone at Take-two saw that there were a bunch of people at their subsidiary who’d unionized, some of whom were foreigners on visas and some locals. Why is the problem for you not that a bunch of people were fired for unionizing, but the fact that some of them weren’t born on the island they were working on?

                反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
                反いじめ戦隊A This user is from outside of this forum
                反いじめ戦隊
                wrote on last edited by
                #73

                Why is the problem for you not that a bunch of people were fired for unionizing, but the fact that some of them weren’t born on the island they were working on?

                This reads as if you’re ignorant on how much more visa workers pay to live somewhere than locals. Should 50+% of my income go to my residency status in a country where that income pars rent prices? Ignorance of visa extortion in the UK is your choice. But don’t tell me Dan was ignorant to the exploitation.

                B 1 Reply Last reply
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                • S savethetuahawk@lemmy.ca

                  Did I say he was union busting? Read the English. He started Rockstar.

                  So maybe he is a little more qualified to criticize Rockstar management for being “fully rounded”.

                  Was Rockstar unionized while he was there? No.

                  T This user is from outside of this forum
                  T This user is from outside of this forum
                  townhousegloryhole@lemmy.world
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #74

                  You might just be a bit of a dick.

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • explodicle@sh.itjust.worksE explodicle@sh.itjust.works

                    Stupid question: if you think it’s a good idea but don’t know when the price will go up, you just buy stock and wait. But if you think it’s a bad idea and don’t know when the price will go down, is there any long-term alternative to shorting that doesn’t require betting on the date?

                    T This user is from outside of this forum
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                    totallyhuman@lemmy.ca
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #75

                    If you imagine it like making a bet, nobody’s going to take a bet with you where they pay you when it pops, but there’s no time after which you pay them – because they’d never get any money out of that bet. Buying stock is different because it’s a thing you can own, but you can’t invest in the idea of something failing, because there isn’t any business which will take your money and make something more likely to fail.

                    You could buy every stock except AI-related stocks, which I believe is functionally equivalent to buying an index fund and shorting AI stocks based on the percentage of AI stocks in the index fund. You could also think about what businesses would do well (or less poorly) in the case of an AI-instigated crash, and then buy those.

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • O onlinepersona@programming.dev

                      That’s a good question I dont have an answer to. Maybe there are ways to short where you can just hold, but I dont know how. Maybe there’s a way to borrow lots of RAM and GPUs, sell them, then buy them back when the price drops and sell them for cheap back to whom you borrowed. But I dont know who would make that deal.

                      T This user is from outside of this forum
                      T This user is from outside of this forum
                      totallyhuman@lemmy.ca
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #76

                      You can hold a short position by repeatedly borrowing more stock – but you run the risk of running out of money completely, because short positions have (theoretically) infinite downside risk.

                      M 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • P paradachshund@lemmy.today

                        Everyone’s talking about the mad cow part, but this is also a really excellent point:

                        “Some of these people trying to define the future of humanity, creativity, or whatever it is using AI, are not the most humane or creative people. So they’re sort of saying, ‘We’re better at being human than you are.’ It’s obviously not true.”

                        remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR This user is from outside of this forum
                        remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR This user is from outside of this forum
                        remembertheapollo_@lemmy.world
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #77

                        Humanity and creativity are not on the CEO’s resumeé. Making shareholders happy by increasing profits and padding the CEO’s ego certainly is.

                        Nik282000N 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • B bulwark@lemmy.world

                          “So it’s sort of like when we fed cows with cows and got mad cow disease.” is an amazing analogy for the current state of LLMs.

                          B This user is from outside of this forum
                          B This user is from outside of this forum
                          bcsven@lemmy.ca
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #78

                          Oh theses cows went wobbly, fell over and died, better feed them to our good stock to save money.

                          1 Reply Last reply
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                          • B boonhet@sopuli.xyz

                            But even his brother is not top leadership at the organization. Any direct orders from their superiors at Take-two still take precedence over what Sam Houser says. In fact it’s currently suspected that the order to fire came from Take-Two.

                            They’re rich beyond the average person’s imagination, but not “early Google employee” rich, let alone “started multi-billion dollar company” rich. They started as regular employees that, after making the first few golden geese, got given stock options so they wouldn’t leave.

                            Turns out the big 100 hour crunch for RDR2 was just Dan Houser, Lazlow and 2 other senior writers and for about 3 weeks. Apparently the crunch used to be a bigger issue earlier on, but got improved after GTA V.

                            Senior Code Content Developer Phil Beveridge concurred that “work practices have definitely improved. Crunch on Red Dead Redemption 2 has definitely been a lot better than it was on GTA V, where I was pulling a month of 70+ hour weeks (while being told by my boss at the time to go home…).”

                            As I understand, the issue at R* wasn’t ever really anyone’s boss saying “you gotta work 70 hour weeks”, it was more “the senior staff works 100 hour weeks and maybe if I only do 40, I’ll not be seen as a team player”. Which is still toxic, but if they’ve taken steps to reduce it, perhaps things aren’t as bad as they seem.

                            The games industry is so bad because of the deadlines. The whole public announcement of “we’ll release game on date X” is a huge problem, as is the fact that games make most of the money just after release, so you gotta have a new game out every few years if you want to keep the lights on - a problem R* no longer has since they’ve brought in billions, so I’m sure Take-Two has loosened the leash a bit on that front at least.

                            Hell, I’m a regular software engineer and I’ve worked 60-70 hour weeks. Not because I was forced to, but because the deadline was near if not passed already, the customer was getting unhappy and I knew it’d look great for my next salary review. I suspect if I was working on a public project, essentially a work of art, that millions of people will get to see and I saw my boss work 100 hours a week, I’d also be motivated to work 60 or 70 for a while. So I can kinda understand how some R* employees say there was no forced crunch time and others say they felt like they were expected to crunch.

                            Honestly, the Houser brothers have just always struck me as creatives who are super passionate about their work. That’s the type of person that can work ridiculous hours without even realizing it and it could bend one’s expectations of what others should do, but it doesn’t seem to me like they’ve ever expected everyone else to work as much as they do, nor has either of them (or even the brothers combined) become a billionaire off over 20 years in senior leadership at a company that literally prints money for its parent company.

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                            ᴍᴜᴛɪʟᴀᴛɪᴏɴᴡᴀᴠᴇ
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #79

                            Check out the state of Civilization 7 at launch for what Take-Two can force. The game badly needed a delay, but didn’t get one. I’m assuming the GTA delay factored into that decision. Although Civilization isn’t nearly the cash cow that GTA is, this is the latest entry from a 30+ year old series and the biggest name in the 4X strategy genre.

                            For what it’s worth, Civ 7 is a much better game now, after additional content (some free as an apology) and big monthly patches.

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • 反いじめ戦隊A 反いじめ戦隊

                              I am not so sure why you are strawmanning my arguments. If he was aware of visa extortion practices during his tenure, is he a good director or a bad one?

                              cilethesane@lemmy.caC This user is from outside of this forum
                              cilethesane@lemmy.caC This user is from outside of this forum
                              cilethesane@lemmy.ca
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #80

                              I’m responding to the arguments and evidence you are presenting. I know nothing of the situation so do not understand the basis of the claims you are making, and you don’t seem to be backing them up very well.

                              反いじめ戦隊A 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • 反いじめ戦隊A 反いじめ戦隊

                                Stop strawmanning?
                                Are you saying he wasn’t involved in role assignment of visa extortion as a director?

                                cilethesane@lemmy.caC This user is from outside of this forum
                                cilethesane@lemmy.caC This user is from outside of this forum
                                cilethesane@lemmy.ca
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #81

                                I quoted you directly, stating that “if this turns out not to be true I take it back” which implies you have no strong evidence for it being true.

                                反いじめ戦隊A 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • alessandro@lemmy.caA alessandro@lemmy.ca
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                                  finitebanjo@lemmy.world
                                  wrote on last edited by finitebanjo@lemmy.world
                                  #82

                                  Is he still working at Rockstar? If so I can forgive a lot of stuff right now.

                                  EDIT: He is not.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • 反いじめ戦隊A 反いじめ戦隊

                                    Why is the problem for you not that a bunch of people were fired for unionizing, but the fact that some of them weren’t born on the island they were working on?

                                    This reads as if you’re ignorant on how much more visa workers pay to live somewhere than locals. Should 50+% of my income go to my residency status in a country where that income pars rent prices? Ignorance of visa extortion in the UK is your choice. But don’t tell me Dan was ignorant to the exploitation.

                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    boonhet@sopuli.xyz
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #83

                                    But nobody was extorted into working there lol, they volunteered.

                                    We’re not talking about some village where people are forced into working the only job available so the boss can demand whatever. We’re talking about people who chose to work at a particular company and knew the deal they were getting before moving. You don’t change countries for a job without doing your research on cost of living first.

                                    Also, Dan Houser has been living in the US for decades. He’s a writer, not an HR specialist. Why does he have to be familiar with the exact situation of the UK labour market? Why does he get the blame and not the UK itself for having shit laws?

                                    I swear some people just want to hate whoever’s name sticks out when we truly don’t know who knew what or what these employees salaries were.

                                    反いじめ戦隊A 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • explodicle@sh.itjust.worksE explodicle@sh.itjust.works

                                      Stupid question: if you think it’s a good idea but don’t know when the price will go up, you just buy stock and wait. But if you think it’s a bad idea and don’t know when the price will go down, is there any long-term alternative to shorting that doesn’t require betting on the date?

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                                      definitemaybe@lemmy.ca
                                      wrote on last edited by definitemaybe@lemmy.ca
                                      #84

                                      Yes, you can with derivatives: buy out-of-money puts.

                                      Derivatives are financial instruments that pay out based on market movements. A classic example is crops: using derivatives, farmers can, essentially, “lock in” the price they sell their goods at. This allows them more stability, since they know in advance how much they’ll be paid for their crops. (And they’ll separately buy crop Insurance to cover their risk for crops failing, most likely.)

                                      Puts are a derivative that is a contract for the right to sell an asset at a given price (the “strike price”) on a given date. Usually, these are closed out by paying the cash value at the end, not actually selling the stocks.

                                      Out of money means that the strike price is below the current market price. If they are still out of money at the end of the contract term, they are literally worthless. But, if the underlying asset (like NVidea stock) crashes, then you can earn the difference between the strike price and the market price.

                                      What makes this speculation* strategy effective is that the market usually prices in a low probability of a major price decrease, so they’re (relatively) cheap. They also have limited downside risk—at worst, you lose everything you spent buying them. For deeply out-of-money puts, you can make a lot of money with a huge crash, but most of the time you “just” lose all your money.

                                      This contrasts with short selling where you have unlimited downside risk. With short selling, you’re basically borrowing someone else’s share and immediately selling it at the current market price, then you need to buy it back from the market when you close out the position. So if you sold it for $100, and need to buy it back at $1000, you’re royally fucked. (You won’t be allowed to get that far, though; you need to keep assets in your account to cover the cost, so you’d be forced to continually “pony up” more cash as the price rises, until you can’t make a payment and you’re forced to close out the position, losing all your initial money and all the money you were forced to keep adding as it rose.)

                                      But good luck with that strategy; I imagine NVidea puts are pretty expensive right now since a lot of people are making this exact bet. As such, people issuing/selling puts are demanding a lot of money to pay for them taking on risk.

                                      * This is “speculation”, not “investment”. Investment requires, by definition, capital put towards productive assets—in other words, it needs to be expected to return an income stream of some kind, like interest, profits, or dividend payments. Speculation is betting on the direction of price movement on an asset—“gambling”, effectively, but with fancy investment words. Like in the farmer example above, they’re gambling that prices won’t go up, since they won’t gain any of the benefit from rising prices. That type of speculation reduces risk—unlike what you are asking about.

                                      There are other ways that derivatives can reduce risk, but that’s not what you were asking about here.

                                      B D 2 Replies Last reply
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                                      • explodicle@sh.itjust.worksE explodicle@sh.itjust.works

                                        Stupid question: if you think it’s a good idea but don’t know when the price will go up, you just buy stock and wait. But if you think it’s a bad idea and don’t know when the price will go down, is there any long-term alternative to shorting that doesn’t require betting on the date?

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                                        buddahriffic@lemmy.world
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #85

                                        The move equivalent to buying stock when you think it’s going to go up is to sell stock you own when you think it’s going to go down.

                                        Or you can look at the series of actions, where buying when you think it’ll go up is just step 1, then step 2 is wait for it to go up, and step 3 is sell it for a profit, and step 4 is look for the next stock you think will go up (or wait and hold the cash if you don’t think any will).

                                        In which case you can do step 3 if you own the stock, or step 4 if you don’t. Then, if it does crash (and the crash is stock prices and not the currency itself, like what happened to a degree in response to the money printed after 2020), you can buy back in at the bottom and wait for it to go up.

                                        But if the fed pumps money into the system to prop up the stock markets, or the government bails out firms that might go under, then that money can be used to keep the stock prices high. And with the richest 1% owning such a high portion of the entire economy, if they have a lot of cash, they could also do that without any help from the feds (reserve or government).

                                        So depending on how a crash is responded to, the best bet might be holding cash or avoiding holding cash. Or maybe investing in some good that holds value well.

                                        However, holding stock might still be fine, assuming the equities you hold are able to survive the crash and everything that comes next. If you look at the historic crashes, the value does always return and pass the previous before crash value, at least on average. You won’t get rich playing it like that but you might not lose those unrealized losses unless you’re in a position where you have to sell.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • alessandro@lemmy.caA alessandro@lemmy.ca
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                                          Seth TaylorS This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Seth TaylorS This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Seth Taylor
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #86

                                          Total rockstar

                                          1 Reply Last reply
                                          6

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