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  3. Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:

Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:

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  • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

    There were lots of times over the years when I had to remind my lawyers that *I* was paying them, not my employer, and that I *didn't* have an administrative assistant, so when they gave me 48 hours' notice to assemble 300 pages of documentation (this happened several times!), it meant that *I* had to drop everything (that is, the activities that let me pay their gigantic invoices) to fulfill their requests.

    7/

    Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
    Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
    Cory Doctorow
    wrote last edited by
    #8

    When you deal with US immigration authorities, everything is elevated to the highest possible stakes. Every step of every process - work visa, green card, citizenship - comes with forms that you sign, on penalty of perjury, attesting that you have made no mistakes or omissions. A single error constitutes a potential falsification of your paperwork, and can result in deportation - losing your job, your house, your kid's schooling, everything.

    8/

    Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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    • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

      When you deal with US immigration authorities, everything is elevated to the highest possible stakes. Every step of every process - work visa, green card, citizenship - comes with forms that you sign, on penalty of perjury, attesting that you have made no mistakes or omissions. A single error constitutes a potential falsification of your paperwork, and can result in deportation - losing your job, your house, your kid's schooling, everything.

      8/

      Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
      Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
      Cory Doctorow
      wrote last edited by
      #9

      This means that, at every stage, you have to be as comprehensive as possible. This is a photo of my second O-1 ("Alien of Extraordinary Ability") visa application. It's 800 pages long:

      Link Preview Image
      My (successful) US work visa application, London, UK -- seriously!.JPG

      favicon

      Flickr (www.flickr.com)

      The next one was *1200* pages long.

      Like I say, I became a citizen in 2022 (for some reason, my wife got her citizenship in 2021, even though we applied jointly). At that point, I thought I was done with the process.

      9/

      Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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      • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

        This means that, at every stage, you have to be as comprehensive as possible. This is a photo of my second O-1 ("Alien of Extraordinary Ability") visa application. It's 800 pages long:

        Link Preview Image
        My (successful) US work visa application, London, UK -- seriously!.JPG

        favicon

        Flickr (www.flickr.com)

        The next one was *1200* pages long.

        Like I say, I became a citizen in 2022 (for some reason, my wife got her citizenship in 2021, even though we applied jointly). At that point, I thought I was done with the process.

        9/

        Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
        Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
        Cory Doctorow
        wrote last edited by
        #10

        But then my kid applied to university and was told that she should sign up for FASFA, which is the federal student loan and grant process; she got pretty good grades and there was a chance she could get a couple grand knocked off her tuition. Seemed like a good idea to me.

        So we filled in the FASFA paperwork, and partway through, it asks if you are a naturalized citizen, and, if you are, it asks you to upload a copy of your certificate of citizenship.

        10/

        Cory DoctorowP JaneJ 2 Replies Last reply
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        • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

          But then my kid applied to university and was told that she should sign up for FASFA, which is the federal student loan and grant process; she got pretty good grades and there was a chance she could get a couple grand knocked off her tuition. Seemed like a good idea to me.

          So we filled in the FASFA paperwork, and partway through, it asks if you are a naturalized citizen, and, if you are, it asks you to upload a copy of your certificate of citizenship.

          10/

          Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
          Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
          Cory Doctorow
          wrote last edited by
          #11

          My wife and I have certificates, but the kid doesn't - she was naturalized along with my wife, and while my wife's certificate was sufficient to get our daughter a passport, it doesn't have the kid's name on it.

          I checked in with our lawyers and was told that the kid couldn't get her certificate of citizenship until she turned 18, which she did last Tuesday. My calendar reminded me that it was time to fill in her N-600, the form for applying for a certificate of citizenship.

          11/

          Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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          • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

            My wife and I have certificates, but the kid doesn't - she was naturalized along with my wife, and while my wife's certificate was sufficient to get our daughter a passport, it doesn't have the kid's name on it.

            I checked in with our lawyers and was told that the kid couldn't get her certificate of citizenship until she turned 18, which she did last Tuesday. My calendar reminded me that it was time to fill in her N-600, the form for applying for a certificate of citizenship.

            11/

            Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
            Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
            Cory Doctorow
            wrote last edited by
            #12

            So yesterday, I sat down at the computer, cleared a couple hours, and went to work. I am used to gnarly bureaucratic questions on this kind of paperwork, and I confess I get a small thrill of victory whenever I can bring up an obscure document demanded by the form. For example: I was able to pull up the number of the passport our daughter used to enter the country in 2015, along with the flight number and date.

            12/

            Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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            • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

              So yesterday, I sat down at the computer, cleared a couple hours, and went to work. I am used to gnarly bureaucratic questions on this kind of paperwork, and I confess I get a small thrill of victory whenever I can bring up an obscure document demanded by the form. For example: I was able to pull up the number of the passport our daughter used to enter the country in 2015, along with the flight number and date.

              12/

              Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
              Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
              Cory Doctorow
              wrote last edited by
              #13

              I was able to pull up all *three* of the numbers that the US immigration service assigned to both my wife *and* me.

              And then, about two hours into this process, I got to this section of the form: "U.S. citizen mother or father's physical presence." This section requires me to list every border crossing I made into the USA *from the day I was born until the date I became a citizen*.

              13/

              Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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              • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                I was able to pull up all *three* of the numbers that the US immigration service assigned to both my wife *and* me.

                And then, about two hours into this process, I got to this section of the form: "U.S. citizen mother or father's physical presence." This section requires me to list every border crossing I made into the USA *from the day I was born until the date I became a citizen*.

                13/

                Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                Cory Doctorow
                wrote last edited by
                #14

                That includes, for example, the time when I was two years old and my parents took me to Fort Lauderdale to visit my retired grandparents. This question comes after a screen where you attest that you will not make any omissions or errors, and that any such omission or error will be treated as an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, with the most severe penalties imaginable.

                14/

                Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                  That includes, for example, the time when I was two years old and my parents took me to Fort Lauderdale to visit my retired grandparents. This question comes after a screen where you attest that you will not make any omissions or errors, and that any such omission or error will be treated as an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, with the most severe penalties imaginable.

                  14/

                  Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                  Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                  Cory Doctorow
                  wrote last edited by
                  #15

                  I tried to call the US immigration service's info line. It is now staffed exclusively by an AI chatbot (thanks, Elon). I tried a dozen times to get the chatbot to put me on the phone with a human who could confirm what I should do about visits to the US that I took more than 50 years ago, when I was two years old. But the chatbot would only offer to text me a link to the online form, which has no guidance on this subject.

                  15/

                  Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                    I tried to call the US immigration service's info line. It is now staffed exclusively by an AI chatbot (thanks, Elon). I tried a dozen times to get the chatbot to put me on the phone with a human who could confirm what I should do about visits to the US that I took more than 50 years ago, when I was two years old. But the chatbot would only offer to text me a link to the online form, which has no guidance on this subject.

                    15/

                    Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                    Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                    Cory Doctorow
                    wrote last edited by
                    #16

                    Then I tried the online chat, which is *also* answered by a chatbot. This chatbot only allows you to ask questions that are less than 80 characters long. Eventually, I managed to piece together a complete conversation with the chatbot that conveyed my question, and it gave me a link to the same online form.

                    16/

                    Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                      Then I tried the online chat, which is *also* answered by a chatbot. This chatbot only allows you to ask questions that are less than 80 characters long. Eventually, I managed to piece together a complete conversation with the chatbot that conveyed my question, and it gave me a link to the same online form.

                      16/

                      Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                      Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                      Cory Doctorow
                      wrote last edited by
                      #17

                      But there *is* an option to escalate the online chat from a bot to a human. So I tried that, and, after repeatedly being prompted to provide my full name and address (home address and mailing address), date of birth, phone number - and disconnected for not typing all this quickly enough - the human eventually pasted in boilerplate telling me to consult an immigration attorney and terminated the chat before I could reply.

                      17/

                      Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                        But there *is* an option to escalate the online chat from a bot to a human. So I tried that, and, after repeatedly being prompted to provide my full name and address (home address and mailing address), date of birth, phone number - and disconnected for not typing all this quickly enough - the human eventually pasted in boilerplate telling me to consult an immigration attorney and terminated the chat before I could reply.

                        17/

                        Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                        Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                        Cory Doctorow
                        wrote last edited by
                        #18

                        To be clear: this is *immigration on the easiest setting*. I am an affluent native English speaker with access to immigration counsel at a fancy firm.

                        Imagine instead that you are not as lucky as I am. Imagine that your parents brought you to the USA 60 years ago, and that you've been a citizen for more than half a century, but you're being told that you should carry your certificate of citizenship if you don't want to be shot in the face or kidnapped to a slave labor camp.

                        18/

                        Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                          To be clear: this is *immigration on the easiest setting*. I am an affluent native English speaker with access to immigration counsel at a fancy firm.

                          Imagine instead that you are not as lucky as I am. Imagine that your parents brought you to the USA 60 years ago, and that you've been a citizen for more than half a century, but you're being told that you should carry your certificate of citizenship if you don't want to be shot in the face or kidnapped to a slave labor camp.

                          18/

                          Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                          Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                          Cory Doctorow
                          wrote last edited by
                          #19

                          Your parents - long dead - never got you that certificate, so you create an online ID with the immigration service and try to complete form N-600. Do you know the date and flight number for the plane you flew to America on when you were three? Do you know your passport number from back then? Do you have all three of each of your dead parents' numeric immigration identifiers?

                          19/

                          Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                            Your parents - long dead - never got you that certificate, so you create an online ID with the immigration service and try to complete form N-600. Do you know the date and flight number for the plane you flew to America on when you were three? Do you know your passport number from back then? Do you have all three of each of your dead parents' numeric immigration identifiers?

                            19/

                            Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                            Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                            Cory Doctorow
                            wrote last edited by
                            #20

                            Can you recover the dates of every border crossing your parents made into the USA from the day they were born until the day they became citizens?

                            Anyone who says that "immigrants should just follow the rules" has missed the fact that *the rules are impossible to follow*.

                            20/

                            Cory DoctorowP The Crafty MissT 2 Replies Last reply
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                            • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                              Can you recover the dates of every border crossing your parents made into the USA from the day they were born until the day they became citizens?

                              Anyone who says that "immigrants should just follow the rules" has missed the fact that *the rules are impossible to follow*.

                              20/

                              Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                              Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                              Cory Doctorow
                              wrote last edited by
                              #21

                              I get to do *luxury Kafka*, the business class version of US immigration Kafka, where you get to board first and nibble from a dish of warm nuts while everyone else shuffles past you, and I've *given up* on getting my daughter's certificate of citizenship. The alternative - omitting a single American vacation between 1971 and 2022 - could constitute an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, after all.

                              21/

                              Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                                I get to do *luxury Kafka*, the business class version of US immigration Kafka, where you get to board first and nibble from a dish of warm nuts while everyone else shuffles past you, and I've *given up* on getting my daughter's certificate of citizenship. The alternative - omitting a single American vacation between 1971 and 2022 - could constitute an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, after all.

                                21/

                                Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                Cory Doctorow
                                wrote last edited by
                                #22

                                This was terrible a couple years ago, when the immigration system still had human operators you could reach by sitting on hold for several hours. Today, thanks to a single billionaire's gleeful cruelty, the system is literally unnavigable, "staffed" by a chatbot that can't answer basic questions. A timely reminder that the only jobs AI can do are the jobs that no one gives a shit about:

                                Link Preview Image
                                Pluralistic: Which jobs can be replaced with AI? (06 Aug 2025) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

                                favicon

                                (pluralistic.net)

                                22/

                                Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                                  This was terrible a couple years ago, when the immigration system still had human operators you could reach by sitting on hold for several hours. Today, thanks to a single billionaire's gleeful cruelty, the system is literally unnavigable, "staffed" by a chatbot that can't answer basic questions. A timely reminder that the only jobs AI can do are the jobs that no one gives a shit about:

                                  Link Preview Image
                                  Pluralistic: Which jobs can be replaced with AI? (06 Aug 2025) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

                                  favicon

                                  (pluralistic.net)

                                  22/

                                  Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Cory Doctorow
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #23

                                  It's also a timely reminder of the awesome destructive power of a single billionaire. This week, I took a Southwest flight to visit my daughter at college for her 18th birthday, and of course, SWA now charges for bags and seats. Multiple passengers complained bitterly and loudly about this as they boarded (despite the fact that the plane was only half full, many people were given middle seats and banned from moving to empty rows).

                                  23/

                                  Cory DoctorowP Megan :verified:M 2 Replies Last reply
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                                  • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                                    It's also a timely reminder of the awesome destructive power of a single billionaire. This week, I took a Southwest flight to visit my daughter at college for her 18th birthday, and of course, SWA now charges for bags and seats. Multiple passengers complained bitterly and loudly about this as they boarded (despite the fact that the plane was only half full, many people were given middle seats and banned from moving to empty rows).

                                    23/

                                    Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Cory Doctorow
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #24

                                    One woman plaintively called out, "Why does everything get worse all the time?" (Yes, I'm aware of the irony of someone saying that within my earshot):

                                    Link Preview Image
                                    Pluralistic: Dirty words are politically potent (14 Oct 2024) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

                                    favicon

                                    (pluralistic.net)

                                    24/

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                                    • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                                      One woman plaintively called out, "Why does everything get worse all the time?" (Yes, I'm aware of the irony of someone saying that within my earshot):

                                      Link Preview Image
                                      Pluralistic: Dirty words are politically potent (14 Oct 2024) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

                                      favicon

                                      (pluralistic.net)

                                      24/

                                      Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Cory Doctorow
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #25

                                      Southwest sucks today because of just one guy: Paul Singer, the billionaire owner of Elliott Investment Management, who bought a stake in SWA and used it to force the board to end open seating and free bag-check, then sold off his stake and disappeared into the sunset, millions richer, leaving behind a pile of shit where a beloved airline once flew:

                                      forbes.com

                                      favicon

                                      (www.forbes.com)

                                      25/

                                      Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                                        Southwest sucks today because of just one guy: Paul Singer, the billionaire owner of Elliott Investment Management, who bought a stake in SWA and used it to force the board to end open seating and free bag-check, then sold off his stake and disappeared into the sunset, millions richer, leaving behind a pile of shit where a beloved airline once flew:

                                        forbes.com

                                        favicon

                                        (www.forbes.com)

                                        25/

                                        Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Cory Doctorow
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #26

                                        One guy, Elon Musk, took the immigration system from "frustrating and inefficient" to "totally impossible." That same guy is an avowed white nationalist - and illegal US immigrant who *did* cheat the immigration system - who sadistically celebrates the unlimited cruelty the immigration system heaps on other immigrants:

                                        https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118277/documents/HHRG-119-JU13-20250520-SD003.pdf

                                        26/

                                        Cory DoctorowP 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • Cory DoctorowP Cory Doctorow

                                          One guy, Elon Musk, took the immigration system from "frustrating and inefficient" to "totally impossible." That same guy is an avowed white nationalist - and illegal US immigrant who *did* cheat the immigration system - who sadistically celebrates the unlimited cruelty the immigration system heaps on other immigrants:

                                          https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118277/documents/HHRG-119-JU13-20250520-SD003.pdf

                                          26/

                                          Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Cory DoctorowP This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Cory Doctorow
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #27

                                          Again: I've got it easy. The people they want to put in concentration camps are doing something a million times harder than anything I've had to do to become a US citizen. People sometimes joke about how Americans couldn't pass the US citizenship test, with its questions about the tortured syntax of the 10th Amendment and the different branches of government.

                                          27/

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