@EndicottAuthor @anolandria how many fascist regimes has nonviolent protest toppled?

Nonviolent protest only ever works when there is a credible threat of actual violence. When those "ceding power" can point to a nonviolent movement as the reason. MLK isn't effective without the specter of Malcom X.

You can't nonviolent your way out of violence.

@HappyCrow13 @anolandria The branch davidians and Waco should not be compared to protesters who are fighting for democracy. Trump has all the weapons you mention so violence is his 'trump' card' so why give him public support. Peaceful protests gain support for the protesters

@Robo105 @anolandria The Branch Davidians were peaceful folks who minded their own business. They caused no problems and were well liked The government made up lies about them, attacked and killed them
My point was the government needs no reason to kill you. You can be the most peaceful being on earth and they will kill you. Black folks die even more now despite being as peaceful as always. It's a grossly privileged take to say sit down and die nicely, don't cause problems
Pacifism is privilege

@Robo105 @anolandria It's incredibly naïve to believe that protesting completely peacefully doesn't "give them an excuse." Did you or did you not just watch them gun down an innocent woman and then call her a domestic terrorist?

Let me be perfectly clear: they will declare martial law when and where they want. They are not waiting around for someone to shove a cop or block traffic.

They haven't yet because the majority is still passive and going about our lives. Check back in November.

@dresstokilt I've been saying this for decades. After the great depression, workers rights weren't gained over a negotiating table. They were won by fighting Pinkertons in the streets.
The gays didn't win acceptance through peacefull conversation with cops.
And, and, and, and ...

All arguments to the contrary are just admissions of not reading or understanding history, or even more pathetic: gleeful naivete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
@Robo105 @anolandria

@Robo105 @anolandria The Branch Davidians were peaceful folks who minded their own business. They caused no problems and were well liked The government made up lies about them, attacked and killed them
My point was the government needs no reason to kill you. You can be the most peaceful being on earth and they will kill you. Black folks die even more now despite being as peaceful as always. It's a grossly privileged take to say sit down and die nicely, don't cause problems
Pacifism is privilege

@Robo105 @anolandria I would argue that forcing them to declare martial law early would be more disruptive to their plans than singing kumbaya in the streets.

Not that there's been anywhere near enough "in the streets" to begin with. We're debating the finer points of peaceful protest in the context of a nation that simply doesn't care enough at the moment to put up *any* kind of protest.

@Robo105 @anolandria I don't think you understand - the administration is going to use martial law as a scalpel, not a club. They're going to shut down major cities in swing states in November on election day in order to maintain their hold in the Senate and claim governorships. There have been no pretexts whatsoever for the times they've deployed troops in cities, they manufacture that after the fact. They always do. Those were dry runs and they worked perfectly.

@Robo105 @anolandria I don't think you understand - the administration is going to use martial law as a scalpel, not a club. They're going to shut down major cities in swing states in November on election day in order to maintain their hold in the Senate and claim governorships. There have been no pretexts whatsoever for the times they've deployed troops in cities, they manufacture that after the fact. They always do. Those were dry runs and they worked perfectly.

@dresstokilt @Robo105 @anolandria It seems to me at least the elections will be the pivotal moment. They're going to try some bullshit and it is extremely important how many people see that it is bullshit, how many people believe the regime and how many people go "Well, who can really tell?" and just do nothing - because people doing nothing is enough for Trump to win.

I can see the argument for keeping one's hands clean, to get mired in the swamp of "Maybe the crackdown was justified, maybe it wasn't" as little as possible, to keep as many people as possible clear-headed about what is happening and have them on your side when the time comes. Moments like Good's killing show that it is still possible to get through to people, to have a majority consensus of This Was Murder.

@Robo105 @anolandria I don't think you understand - the administration is going to use martial law as a scalpel, not a club. They're going to shut down major cities in swing states in November on election day in order to maintain their hold in the Senate and claim governorships. There have been no pretexts whatsoever for the times they've deployed troops in cities, they manufacture that after the fact. They always do. Those were dry runs and they worked perfectly.

@Robo105 @anolandria Tell that to the folks in Waco or the Branch Davidians. Or the guys on Ruby Ridge.
The government can and will do whatever it wants, when it wants. They have drones, long distance guns and bombs. They can and will use them on the American people.
I get being pacifist. I try to be. That privalege is swiftly coming to an end for the majority of us. I can't stand by and watch my people die anymore.

@Robo105 @anolandria if they needed a dead ICE thug for an excuse, do you not think they would kill one??? These nazis are playing a zero-sum game, while you are insisting on some sort of cooperation — this is a losing strategy.

@EndicottAuthor @anolandria how many fascist regimes has nonviolent protest toppled?

Nonviolent protest only ever works when there is a credible threat of actual violence. When those "ceding power" can point to a nonviolent movement as the reason. MLK isn't effective without the specter of Malcom X.

You can't nonviolent your way out of violence.

@anolandria Also: the statement "They're looking for an excuse to do X" is an implicit admission that the decision has already been made. We can only control the "when."

As you said, it's only function can be to reverse victim and offender by blaming the victim for inducing the inevitable. It does conveniently obscure the fact that we should be upset by someone looking for "an excuse."

@HappyCrow13 @anolandria Waco and davidians had weapons and lost. Black panthers had weapons and lost. Violence eg shooting police is what Trump needs to happen what he is trying to provoke.

If you believe nonviolent protest is more effective, then simply advocate for it. The "don't give them an excuse" line is disingenuous victim blaming. They make shit up. We see it every single day, so please stop embarrassing yourself.

"Our behavior doesn’t drive theirs."

@anolandria this is so so so true, and we see it play out constantly in right wing media too. My leftist peers will be like "but the media will construe it in this way" like "yeah and they do that anyway regardless!"