Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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Your parents - long dead - never got you that certificate, so you create an online ID with the immigration service and try to complete form N-600. Do you know the date and flight number for the plane you flew to America on when you were three? Do you know your passport number from back then? Do you have all three of each of your dead parents' numeric immigration identifiers?
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Can you recover the dates of every border crossing your parents made into the USA from the day they were born until the day they became citizens?
Anyone who says that "immigrants should just follow the rules" has missed the fact that *the rules are impossible to follow*.
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Can you recover the dates of every border crossing your parents made into the USA from the day they were born until the day they became citizens?
Anyone who says that "immigrants should just follow the rules" has missed the fact that *the rules are impossible to follow*.
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I get to do *luxury Kafka*, the business class version of US immigration Kafka, where you get to board first and nibble from a dish of warm nuts while everyone else shuffles past you, and I've *given up* on getting my daughter's certificate of citizenship. The alternative - omitting a single American vacation between 1971 and 2022 - could constitute an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, after all.
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I get to do *luxury Kafka*, the business class version of US immigration Kafka, where you get to board first and nibble from a dish of warm nuts while everyone else shuffles past you, and I've *given up* on getting my daughter's certificate of citizenship. The alternative - omitting a single American vacation between 1971 and 2022 - could constitute an attempt to defraud the US immigration system, after all.
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This was terrible a couple years ago, when the immigration system still had human operators you could reach by sitting on hold for several hours. Today, thanks to a single billionaire's gleeful cruelty, the system is literally unnavigable, "staffed" by a chatbot that can't answer basic questions. A timely reminder that the only jobs AI can do are the jobs that no one gives a shit about:
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This was terrible a couple years ago, when the immigration system still had human operators you could reach by sitting on hold for several hours. Today, thanks to a single billionaire's gleeful cruelty, the system is literally unnavigable, "staffed" by a chatbot that can't answer basic questions. A timely reminder that the only jobs AI can do are the jobs that no one gives a shit about:
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It's also a timely reminder of the awesome destructive power of a single billionaire. This week, I took a Southwest flight to visit my daughter at college for her 18th birthday, and of course, SWA now charges for bags and seats. Multiple passengers complained bitterly and loudly about this as they boarded (despite the fact that the plane was only half full, many people were given middle seats and banned from moving to empty rows).
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It's also a timely reminder of the awesome destructive power of a single billionaire. This week, I took a Southwest flight to visit my daughter at college for her 18th birthday, and of course, SWA now charges for bags and seats. Multiple passengers complained bitterly and loudly about this as they boarded (despite the fact that the plane was only half full, many people were given middle seats and banned from moving to empty rows).
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One woman plaintively called out, "Why does everything get worse all the time?" (Yes, I'm aware of the irony of someone saying that within my earshot):
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One woman plaintively called out, "Why does everything get worse all the time?" (Yes, I'm aware of the irony of someone saying that within my earshot):
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Southwest sucks today because of just one guy: Paul Singer, the billionaire owner of Elliott Investment Management, who bought a stake in SWA and used it to force the board to end open seating and free bag-check, then sold off his stake and disappeared into the sunset, millions richer, leaving behind a pile of shit where a beloved airline once flew:
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Southwest sucks today because of just one guy: Paul Singer, the billionaire owner of Elliott Investment Management, who bought a stake in SWA and used it to force the board to end open seating and free bag-check, then sold off his stake and disappeared into the sunset, millions richer, leaving behind a pile of shit where a beloved airline once flew:
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One guy, Elon Musk, took the immigration system from "frustrating and inefficient" to "totally impossible." That same guy is an avowed white nationalist - and illegal US immigrant who *did* cheat the immigration system - who sadistically celebrates the unlimited cruelty the immigration system heaps on other immigrants:
https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118277/documents/HHRG-119-JU13-20250520-SD003.pdf
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One guy, Elon Musk, took the immigration system from "frustrating and inefficient" to "totally impossible." That same guy is an avowed white nationalist - and illegal US immigrant who *did* cheat the immigration system - who sadistically celebrates the unlimited cruelty the immigration system heaps on other immigrants:
https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118277/documents/HHRG-119-JU13-20250520-SD003.pdf
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Again: I've got it easy. The people they want to put in concentration camps are doing something a million times harder than anything I've had to do to become a US citizen. People sometimes joke about how Americans couldn't pass the US citizenship test, with its questions about the tortured syntax of the 10th Amendment and the different branches of government.
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Again: I've got it easy. The people they want to put in concentration camps are doing something a million times harder than anything I've had to do to become a US citizen. People sometimes joke about how Americans couldn't pass the US citizenship test, with its questions about the tortured syntax of the 10th Amendment and the different branches of government.
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But the US citizenship test is the *easy* part. That test sits at the center of a bureaucratic maze that no American could find their way through.
eof/
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@jcsteh @pluralistic Agreed, and I became a citizen last year. People born here don't have to take a test and wait years to be able to do it.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic Why would anyone - especially a canadian - even want to be s US citizen, is beyond me!
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@pluralistic Why would anyone - especially a canadian - even want to be s US citizen, is beyond me!
@pa27 Because I live in the USA. Would you rather be a NON-citizen in the USA?
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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"it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:"
Why would we?
None of us have ever passed through it, and very few of us have ever assisted anyone though it
Have you collected data on the immigration process from other countries, to compare?
Have you collected information from people world-wide about their understanding of their own country's immigration process?
It's obvious to me that few non-Americans have any idea how to see things from an American point of view
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"it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:"
Why would we?
None of us have ever passed through it, and very few of us have ever assisted anyone though it
Have you collected data on the immigration process from other countries, to compare?
Have you collected information from people world-wide about their understanding of their own country's immigration process?
It's obvious to me that few non-Americans have any idea how to see things from an American point of view
@codebyjeff Yes. I also was naturalized as a Briton, and my father was naturalized as a Canadian. The American system is incredibly bad, by international standards.
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@codebyjeff Yes. I also was naturalized as a Briton, and my father was naturalized as a Canadian. The American system is incredibly bad, by international standards.
@pluralistic yeah, I'm sorry but I'm tired of
"'by international standards"
as a stand in for Britain, Canada, Europe & America
We may or may not have a shit process, but I doubt you researched the rest of the world to determine what is "normal"
I live in Japan, and good luck becoming a full-time resident here
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@codebyjeff Yes. I also was naturalized as a Briton, and my father was naturalized as a Canadian. The American system is incredibly bad, by international standards.
@pluralistic@mamot.fr @codebyjeff@hachyderm.io I have family members who have applied for (and in some cases received) naturalization to seven different nationalities. The US applications were the most time consuming and expensive by an enormous margin. Not because the actual requirements were more restrictive (all four US applications were eventually successful, while some of the others were not), but because of the process.
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@pa27 Because I live in the USA. Would you rather be a NON-citizen in the USA?
@pluralistic Fair point, but I'd rather not live there at all!
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@pluralistic@mamot.fr @codebyjeff@hachyderm.io I have family members who have applied for (and in some cases received) naturalization to seven different nationalities. The US applications were the most time consuming and expensive by an enormous margin. Not because the actual requirements were more restrictive (all four US applications were eventually successful, while some of the others were not), but because of the process.
not to waste your time in things I can look up, but what could people do efficiently in other countries that they couldn't do in the US?
Full disclosure: My wife is Japanese and had a green card in the US before we moved to Japan
We didn't follow through to her becoming a citizen, but what we did to deal with her green card involved a total of 1 meeting and a couple of forms
I have seen how others around us who weren't coming from a first world country to marry an American were being treated - I'm not trying to defend that
I'm challenging the statement that it is worse than applying in other countries
Honestly, I skimmed the main article and found it full of emotions and low on facts and nothing at all like what my wife went through
But I WILL admit that US govt processes are a mare's nest. Often times, ironically, in an effort to be fair.
Also, ironically - this complaint against American bureaucracy is one of MAGA's biggest compliants
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not to waste your time in things I can look up, but what could people do efficiently in other countries that they couldn't do in the US?
Full disclosure: My wife is Japanese and had a green card in the US before we moved to Japan
We didn't follow through to her becoming a citizen, but what we did to deal with her green card involved a total of 1 meeting and a couple of forms
I have seen how others around us who weren't coming from a first world country to marry an American were being treated - I'm not trying to defend that
I'm challenging the statement that it is worse than applying in other countries
Honestly, I skimmed the main article and found it full of emotions and low on facts and nothing at all like what my wife went through
But I WILL admit that US govt processes are a mare's nest. Often times, ironically, in an effort to be fair.
Also, ironically - this complaint against American bureaucracy is one of MAGA's biggest compliants
@codebyjeff@hachyderm.io @pluralistic@mamot.fr So firstly: some other countries suck as well, just to be clear. Just maybe not as much
. My wife getting her UK citizenship was far harder than it had any reason to be (answer questions on British TV shows I had never watched, do an English test that required a much lower level than she'd had to demonstrate for existing profressional qualifications from a UK university, etc).But the main difference just seemed to be in the sheer volume of information you needed to find and submit, and obviously the more you submit the more there is that can be challenged, that you might have made a mistake on, that you might forget.
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@codebyjeff@hachyderm.io @pluralistic@mamot.fr So firstly: some other countries suck as well, just to be clear. Just maybe not as much
. My wife getting her UK citizenship was far harder than it had any reason to be (answer questions on British TV shows I had never watched, do an English test that required a much lower level than she'd had to demonstrate for existing profressional qualifications from a UK university, etc).But the main difference just seemed to be in the sheer volume of information you needed to find and submit, and obviously the more you submit the more there is that can be challenged, that you might have made a mistake on, that you might forget.
@mavnn @pluralistic yes, the forms, forms, forms is absolutely out of control
no debate there
