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  3. Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

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  • JohnJ John

    Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

    You cannot have efficient government because eventually service efficiency always boils down to a triage process: who have you decided is hopeless/undeserving and therefore not worth serving?

    But any government that does that is fascist and illegitimate. Government serves *all* the people, or it is radioactive poisonous garbage.

    kitH This user is from outside of this forum
    kitH This user is from outside of this forum
    kit
    wrote last edited by
    #5

    @johnzajac 100%. And in practice efficiency is measured by one or both of service reduction (corner cutting) and profit extraction.

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • JohnJ John

      @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

      So, efficiency itself - as an outcome of good process - is not a bad thing. Obviously! Waste, especially in a warming world, is to be avoided.

      It's efficiency as a primary *goal* - a particularly deranged symptom of capitalist, neoliberal ideology - that leads to the kind of collapsed services, enshittified businesses and hollowed out society we see today.

      DThorisD This user is from outside of this forum
      DThorisD This user is from outside of this forum
      DThoris
      wrote last edited by
      #6

      @johnzajac @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

      Because in business, efficiency per se is used to refer to lowest cost without regard to actually creating a good product. The goal is to create a minimally acceptable product to create profit for shareholders.

      But that's not the goal in government, despite the current/regressive fad. Many of us (people on Earth) have forgotten that the government's goal is to protect its citizens. From each other, penury, exploitation, external aggression, all that.

      cyberveganC Eric LawtonE 2 Replies Last reply
      0
      • JohnJ John

        Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

        You cannot have efficient government because eventually service efficiency always boils down to a triage process: who have you decided is hopeless/undeserving and therefore not worth serving?

        But any government that does that is fascist and illegitimate. Government serves *all* the people, or it is radioactive poisonous garbage.

        j5vJ This user is from outside of this forum
        j5vJ This user is from outside of this forum
        j5v
        wrote last edited by
        #7

        @johnzajac Efficiency can be good, but all too often it's a cover for an unsavory strategy.

        Efficiency that's worth doing is exactly the stuff that local councils were invented for: a way to invest in central resource and specialization, to do the best job for the most people, on a service-focused not-for-profit basis.

        Its also worth automating repetitive stuff, so people can do more.

        But "the free market makes it cost-effective" is a lobbyist lie.

        JohnJ 1 Reply Last reply
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        • JohnJ John

          Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

          You cannot have efficient government because eventually service efficiency always boils down to a triage process: who have you decided is hopeless/undeserving and therefore not worth serving?

          But any government that does that is fascist and illegitimate. Government serves *all* the people, or it is radioactive poisonous garbage.

          tetchy afA This user is from outside of this forum
          tetchy afA This user is from outside of this forum
          tetchy af
          wrote last edited by
          #8

          @johnzajac @anandamide desiring efficiency in capitalism results in someone getting poorer. Two companies, largely running the same business and competing for the same market merge to create "efficiencies" results in customers being screwed, and employees being deemed to be surplus.

          Efficiency is undesirable at almost any macro level.

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          • DThorisD DThoris

            @johnzajac @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

            Because in business, efficiency per se is used to refer to lowest cost without regard to actually creating a good product. The goal is to create a minimally acceptable product to create profit for shareholders.

            But that's not the goal in government, despite the current/regressive fad. Many of us (people on Earth) have forgotten that the government's goal is to protect its citizens. From each other, penury, exploitation, external aggression, all that.

            cyberveganC This user is from outside of this forum
            cyberveganC This user is from outside of this forum
            cybervegan
            wrote last edited by
            #9

            @DejahEntendu @johnzajac @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft The governments (all of them) goal is to protect the wealthy from the poor.

            DThorisD 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • j5vJ j5v

              @johnzajac Efficiency can be good, but all too often it's a cover for an unsavory strategy.

              Efficiency that's worth doing is exactly the stuff that local councils were invented for: a way to invest in central resource and specialization, to do the best job for the most people, on a service-focused not-for-profit basis.

              Its also worth automating repetitive stuff, so people can do more.

              But "the free market makes it cost-effective" is a lobbyist lie.

              JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
              JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
              John
              wrote last edited by
              #10

              @j5v

              Efficiency is not something you "do"; it's an outcome of *how* you do something.

              Efficiency as a goal in and of itself is aberrant and nonsensical outside of the particularly deranged logical errors of our current industrial era.

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • JohnJ John

                Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

                You cannot have efficient government because eventually service efficiency always boils down to a triage process: who have you decided is hopeless/undeserving and therefore not worth serving?

                But any government that does that is fascist and illegitimate. Government serves *all* the people, or it is radioactive poisonous garbage.

                Raymond RussellR This user is from outside of this forum
                Raymond RussellR This user is from outside of this forum
                Raymond Russell
                wrote last edited by
                #11

                @johnzajac
                The most efficient hospital has one bed as you can guarantee 100% occupancy but its fuck all use to nearly every one else on the planet who requires that level of treatment.

                JohnJ 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • JohnJ John

                  @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                  So, efficiency itself - as an outcome of good process - is not a bad thing. Obviously! Waste, especially in a warming world, is to be avoided.

                  It's efficiency as a primary *goal* - a particularly deranged symptom of capitalist, neoliberal ideology - that leads to the kind of collapsed services, enshittified businesses and hollowed out society we see today.

                  GraydonG This user is from outside of this forum
                  GraydonG This user is from outside of this forum
                  Graydon
                  wrote last edited by
                  #12

                  @johnzajac Cost efficiency is a bad thing.

                  Cost efficiency is why we're in this mess, on the whole and by and large.

                  ('cost efficiency' = I want the largest possible pile of accounting tokens because that maximizes my relative advantage)

                  Gotta watch out for efficiency of outcomes, too; lots of people's preferred outcomes really do include consigning their neighbors to perdition.

                  Better to specify outcomes and reward effectiveness overtly, not implicitly.

                  @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                  JohnJ 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • GraydonG Graydon

                    @johnzajac Cost efficiency is a bad thing.

                    Cost efficiency is why we're in this mess, on the whole and by and large.

                    ('cost efficiency' = I want the largest possible pile of accounting tokens because that maximizes my relative advantage)

                    Gotta watch out for efficiency of outcomes, too; lots of people's preferred outcomes really do include consigning their neighbors to perdition.

                    Better to specify outcomes and reward effectiveness overtly, not implicitly.

                    @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                    JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                    JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                    John
                    wrote last edited by
                    #13

                    @graydon @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                    "Specify outcomes and reward effectiveness" is precisely what I mean when I say efficiency as an additional benefit of good process is a good thing.

                    Cost efficiency and outcome (what I call service) efficiency are an example of designing for efficiency rather than for outcome or effectiveness.

                    TBH, it reminds me of when I used to consult with startups and I would ask "why this product?" and the founders would say "because we want to be billionaires".

                    GraydonG Eric LawtonE 2 Replies Last reply
                    0
                    • Raymond RussellR Raymond Russell

                      @johnzajac
                      The most efficient hospital has one bed as you can guarantee 100% occupancy but its fuck all use to nearly every one else on the planet who requires that level of treatment.

                      JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                      JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                      John
                      wrote last edited by
                      #14

                      @raymierussell

                      Which is why, of course, most Western hospitals ran out of ICU beds and ventilators in April 2020 and Jan 2022: cost and service efficiency fallacies that were pursued contra mission requirements.

                      Raymond RussellR 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • JohnJ John

                        @graydon @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                        "Specify outcomes and reward effectiveness" is precisely what I mean when I say efficiency as an additional benefit of good process is a good thing.

                        Cost efficiency and outcome (what I call service) efficiency are an example of designing for efficiency rather than for outcome or effectiveness.

                        TBH, it reminds me of when I used to consult with startups and I would ask "why this product?" and the founders would say "because we want to be billionaires".

                        GraydonG This user is from outside of this forum
                        GraydonG This user is from outside of this forum
                        Graydon
                        wrote last edited by
                        #15

                        @johnzajac "because we want to be billionaires" is exactly the problem, yeah. Which can only really be addressed by making being a billionaire impossible.

                        The problem with keeping "efficiency is good sometimes" around is that it's precisely the wedge that got used (from the formal process of enclosure forward, and which I could wish more people were aware of, because what is being called enshitification is digital enclosure) to get us here.

                        @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                        JohnJ 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • JohnJ John

                          @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                          So, efficiency itself - as an outcome of good process - is not a bad thing. Obviously! Waste, especially in a warming world, is to be avoided.

                          It's efficiency as a primary *goal* - a particularly deranged symptom of capitalist, neoliberal ideology - that leads to the kind of collapsed services, enshittified businesses and hollowed out society we see today.

                          A Flock of BeaglesB This user is from outside of this forum
                          A Flock of BeaglesB This user is from outside of this forum
                          A Flock of Beagles
                          wrote last edited by
                          #16

                          @johnzajac @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                          "efficiency" is a euphemism for unemploying workers. there is no way for an "efficient" government to be pro-labour.

                          JohnJ 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • JohnJ John

                            @raymierussell

                            Which is why, of course, most Western hospitals ran out of ICU beds and ventilators in April 2020 and Jan 2022: cost and service efficiency fallacies that were pursued contra mission requirements.

                            Raymond RussellR This user is from outside of this forum
                            Raymond RussellR This user is from outside of this forum
                            Raymond Russell
                            wrote last edited by
                            #17

                            @johnzajac
                            And of course capitalism pushes inefficiency when there is big bucks to be made.
                            Look at the typical car, one of the biggest purchase/rentals anyone can make. Sits doing nothing all night, travels a distance most weekdays sits for 8 hours and then performs the return journey. Add in a few shopping trips here and there but it is idle most of the time.
                            However it is sold as an convenience and an efficiency because alternatives may not exist due to deliberate industry propaganda.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • JohnJ John

                              Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

                              You cannot have efficient government because eventually service efficiency always boils down to a triage process: who have you decided is hopeless/undeserving and therefore not worth serving?

                              But any government that does that is fascist and illegitimate. Government serves *all* the people, or it is radioactive poisonous garbage.

                              a wandering happenstanceJ This user is from outside of this forum
                              a wandering happenstanceJ This user is from outside of this forum
                              a wandering happenstance
                              wrote last edited by
                              #18

                              @johnzajac @cstross Related to this, the phrase “good enough for government work” really ᴏᴜɢʜᴛ to mean “completed to a very high standard of quality” and the fact that it doesn’t mean that is an indicator of how successful the toxic propaganda has been.

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                              0
                              • GraydonG Graydon

                                @johnzajac "because we want to be billionaires" is exactly the problem, yeah. Which can only really be addressed by making being a billionaire impossible.

                                The problem with keeping "efficiency is good sometimes" around is that it's precisely the wedge that got used (from the formal process of enclosure forward, and which I could wish more people were aware of, because what is being called enshitification is digital enclosure) to get us here.

                                @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                John
                                wrote last edited by
                                #19

                                @graydon @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                I'm not saying "efficiency is good sometimes", I'm saying "efficiency as an outgrowth of good process and appropriate use of resources is desireable", which seems like a small distinction but is a huge difference, practically.

                                In a service provider example, resultant efficiency gains can lead to better service to more people (in the instance of resource crunches) and help critical infra *avoid* triage situations.

                                JohnJ GraydonG 2 Replies Last reply
                                0
                                • JohnJ John

                                  @graydon @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                  I'm not saying "efficiency is good sometimes", I'm saying "efficiency as an outgrowth of good process and appropriate use of resources is desireable", which seems like a small distinction but is a huge difference, practically.

                                  In a service provider example, resultant efficiency gains can lead to better service to more people (in the instance of resource crunches) and help critical infra *avoid* triage situations.

                                  JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  John
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #20

                                  @graydon @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                  But, the only way to "design" for this kind of efficiency is to design processes that have adequate resources (both material and human) applied to them and that have parts that can operate orthogonally.

                                  So, really the *opposite* of "designing for efficiency", which is why systems designed for efficiency don't have resource buffers and often fail catastrophically when stressed, leading to extraordinary costs and obliterated efficiency "gains".

                                  🤷‍♂️

                                  JohnJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • JohnJ John

                                    @graydon @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                    But, the only way to "design" for this kind of efficiency is to design processes that have adequate resources (both material and human) applied to them and that have parts that can operate orthogonally.

                                    So, really the *opposite* of "designing for efficiency", which is why systems designed for efficiency don't have resource buffers and often fail catastrophically when stressed, leading to extraordinary costs and obliterated efficiency "gains".

                                    🤷‍♂️

                                    JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    John
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #21

                                    @graydon @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                    But all the rich people get richer, so there you have it.

                                    GraydonG 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • A Flock of BeaglesB A Flock of Beagles

                                      @johnzajac @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                      "efficiency" is a euphemism for unemploying workers. there is no way for an "efficient" government to be pro-labour.

                                      JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      JohnJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      John
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #22

                                      @burnitdown @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                      I'd go so far as to say "pro-person".

                                      A Flock of BeaglesB 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • JohnJ John

                                        @burnitdown @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft

                                        I'd go so far as to say "pro-person".

                                        A Flock of BeaglesB This user is from outside of this forum
                                        A Flock of BeaglesB This user is from outside of this forum
                                        A Flock of Beagles
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #23

                                        @johnzajac @EricLawton @bonaventuresoft sure, but they aren't cutting jobs of politicians, who are also people.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • JohnJ John

                                          Efficiency in government is a lie told by people who want government to serve the smallest number of (rich) people possible and no one else.

                                          You cannot have efficient government because eventually service efficiency always boils down to a triage process: who have you decided is hopeless/undeserving and therefore not worth serving?

                                          But any government that does that is fascist and illegitimate. Government serves *all* the people, or it is radioactive poisonous garbage.

                                          Michael OrmsbyM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Michael OrmsbyM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Michael Ormsby
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #24

                                          @johnzajac Sadly, in the US we currently have government of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations.

                                          Apologies to Abraham Lincoln.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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