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Wandering Adventure Party

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Come on guys...

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  • bdonvr@thelemmy.clubB bdonvr@thelemmy.club

    Man there’s something about the monty hall problem that just messes with human reasoning. I get it now and it’s really not even complicated at all but when you first learn about it you tend to overthink it. Now I don’t even understand how I was ever confused.

    underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
    underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
    underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
    wrote last edited by
    #36

    I think the problem is that people forget Monty Hall has information that the contestant does not. The naive assumption is that he’s just picking a door and you’re just picking a door. The unsophisticated viewer never really stops to think about why Monty Hall never points to a door and reveals a prize by mistake.

    One way I’ve had success explaining it is to expand the problem to more than three doors. Assume 100 doors. Monty Hall then says “Open 98 doors” and fails to reveal a prize behind any of them. Now its a bit more clear that he knows something you don’t.

    bdonvr@thelemmy.clubB C 2 Replies Last reply
    9
    • S stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Wakmrow [he/him]
      wrote last edited by
      #37

      The same logic applies to a nat 20 though

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU underpantsweevil@lemmy.world

        I think the problem is that people forget Monty Hall has information that the contestant does not. The naive assumption is that he’s just picking a door and you’re just picking a door. The unsophisticated viewer never really stops to think about why Monty Hall never points to a door and reveals a prize by mistake.

        One way I’ve had success explaining it is to expand the problem to more than three doors. Assume 100 doors. Monty Hall then says “Open 98 doors” and fails to reveal a prize behind any of them. Now its a bit more clear that he knows something you don’t.

        bdonvr@thelemmy.clubB This user is from outside of this forum
        bdonvr@thelemmy.clubB This user is from outside of this forum
        bdonvr@thelemmy.club
        wrote last edited by
        #38

        Maybe? I don’t think that was my issue. I think I was overthinking it and using the second “choice” as an event with separate odds.

        underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU 1 Reply Last reply
        3
        • R rizzrustbolt@lemmy.world

          You haven’t seen how some of the folks I play with roll.

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          granitem@lemmy.world
          wrote last edited by
          #39

          And of course the traditional sentence for dice which misbehave one too many times.

          1 Reply Last reply
          12
          • bdonvr@thelemmy.clubB bdonvr@thelemmy.club

            Maybe? I don’t think that was my issue. I think I was overthinking it and using the second “choice” as an event with separate odds.

            underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
            underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
            underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
            wrote last edited by
            #40

            The thing you’re getting by switching is the benefit of the information provided by the person who revealed an empty door.

            Before a door is open, you have a 1/3 chance of selecting correctly.

            After you select a door, the host picks from the other two doors. This provides extra information you didn’t have during your initial selection. The host points to a door they know is a dud and asks for it to open. So now you’re left with the question “Did I pick the correct door on the first go? Or did the host skip the door that had the prize?” There’s a 1/3 chance you picked the right door initially and a 2/3 chance the host had to avoid the prize-door.

            tigeruppercut@lemmy.zipT 1 Reply Last reply
            4
            • W whyihatetheinternet@lemmy.world

              Ai probably

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              archpawn@lemmy.world
              wrote last edited by
              #41

              Where did they get an AI that managed to mess up “roll” as “role” twice in the same page? Humans do it because they sound the same, but AI doesn’t know how they sound. The AI knows that sometimes people say “role” instead of “roll”, but they’re generally set to raise the probability of a token to some power, and since most people spell “roll” right, they’re even more likely to. And they also generally have a post-training step where they’re trained to spell stuff right and that sort of thing. And they don’t even need to be trained on that specifically, since some people spell better than others, so they can understand the general concept of good vs bad spelling.

              1 Reply Last reply
              1
              • BLAMM67B BLAMM67

                This kind of thinking is wasteful. Every d20 has a finite lifespan. It was created, and it will, at some time in the future be destroyed, as all things are. That means it has a finite number of rolls in its lifetime, with an equal distribution of all possible outcomes. When you “practice roll” and get a nat 20, you have wasted one of the limited number of nat 20s that die has in it. Think of the 20s. Don’t practice roll.

                moseschrute@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
                moseschrute@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
                moseschrute@lemmy.world
                wrote last edited by
                #42

                That’s stupid. But obviously how the dice strikes the table impacts its balance and therefore the probability of rolling specific numbers. So we must figure out what side need to strike the table first to decrease the probability of getting an undesirable roll. Boom, I out physicsed you’re probabilities.

                M 1 Reply Last reply
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                • S stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  archpawn@lemmy.world
                  wrote last edited by
                  #43

                  The funny thing is that this logic assumes the rolls are independent (so you can just multiply probabilities), but the definition of independence is that past rolls can’t affect future ones. So basically it’s saying that past rolls can’t affect future ones and therefore they must.

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • S stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                    This post did not contain any content.
                    tehbamski@lemmy.worldT This user is from outside of this forum
                    tehbamski@lemmy.worldT This user is from outside of this forum
                    tehbamski@lemmy.world
                    wrote last edited by
                    #44

                    Me every time I think about this.

                    starman2112@sh.itjust.worksS T ⛓️‍💥_ 3 Replies Last reply
                    8
                    • tehbamski@lemmy.worldT tehbamski@lemmy.world

                      Me every time I think about this.

                      starman2112@sh.itjust.worksS This user is from outside of this forum
                      starman2112@sh.itjust.worksS This user is from outside of this forum
                      starman2112@sh.itjust.works
                      wrote last edited by
                      #45

                      The math checks out, but the problem is the danger of rolling a nat 20 on your practice roll. The odds of getting two nat 20s in a row are almost as low as the odds of getting two nat 1s, so you may be screwing yourself out of a crit

                      C 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • tehbamski@lemmy.worldT tehbamski@lemmy.world

                        Me every time I think about this.

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                        thatkamguy@sh.itjust.works
                        wrote last edited by
                        #46

                        Weirdly enough, it’s just the way probability works.

                        Once something stops being a possibility, and becomes a fact (ie. dice are rolled, numbers known) - future probability is no longer affected (assuming independent events like die rolls).

                        e.g. you have a 1/400 chance of rolling two 1s on a D20 back-to-back. But if your first roll is a 1, you’re back down to the standard 1/20 chance of doing it again - because one of the conditions has already been met.

                        L 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • BLAMM67B BLAMM67

                          This kind of thinking is wasteful. Every d20 has a finite lifespan. It was created, and it will, at some time in the future be destroyed, as all things are. That means it has a finite number of rolls in its lifetime, with an equal distribution of all possible outcomes. When you “practice roll” and get a nat 20, you have wasted one of the limited number of nat 20s that die has in it. Think of the 20s. Don’t practice roll.

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                          ButteryMonkey
                          wrote last edited by
                          #47

                          Besides, everyone knows you play the long game of training your dice by always resting them with the high value up.

                          It probably does nothing, but maybe the atoms shift over time and it warps just a bit and rolls better.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          2
                          • BLAMM67B BLAMM67

                            This kind of thinking is wasteful. Every d20 has a finite lifespan. It was created, and it will, at some time in the future be destroyed, as all things are. That means it has a finite number of rolls in its lifetime, with an equal distribution of all possible outcomes. When you “practice roll” and get a nat 20, you have wasted one of the limited number of nat 20s that die has in it. Think of the 20s. Don’t practice roll.

                            heythisisnttheymca@lemmy.worldH This user is from outside of this forum
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                            heythisisnttheymca@lemmy.world
                            wrote last edited by
                            #48

                            After like three 20s I can’t roll over 10 I need better dice. Or better luck.

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • bytejunk@lemmy.worldB bytejunk@lemmy.world

                              D4 is the devil’s dice.

                              heythisisnttheymca@lemmy.worldH This user is from outside of this forum
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                              heythisisnttheymca@lemmy.world
                              wrote last edited by
                              #49

                              I thought that was the d8. At least the 4 is flared at the base

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • starman2112@sh.itjust.worksS starman2112@sh.itjust.works

                                The math checks out, but the problem is the danger of rolling a nat 20 on your practice roll. The odds of getting two nat 20s in a row are almost as low as the odds of getting two nat 1s, so you may be screwing yourself out of a crit

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                                cliff@lemmy.world
                                wrote last edited by
                                #50

                                Jesse, that’s not how probability fucking works.

                                starman2112@sh.itjust.worksS 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU underpantsweevil@lemmy.world

                                  I think the problem is that people forget Monty Hall has information that the contestant does not. The naive assumption is that he’s just picking a door and you’re just picking a door. The unsophisticated viewer never really stops to think about why Monty Hall never points to a door and reveals a prize by mistake.

                                  One way I’ve had success explaining it is to expand the problem to more than three doors. Assume 100 doors. Monty Hall then says “Open 98 doors” and fails to reveal a prize behind any of them. Now its a bit more clear that he knows something you don’t.

                                  C This user is from outside of this forum
                                  C This user is from outside of this forum
                                  cuerdo@lemmy.world
                                  wrote last edited by cuerdo@lemmy.world
                                  #51

                                  Yes, it is more like a sleigh of hand or a magic trick. When the presenter discards an option, they are acting as a hand of god that skews the probability.

                                  It is much easier to understand with a hundred doors. You choose one and then the presenter discards 98 doors, now you decide whether to keep yours or to choose the other one.

                                  Here it is more obvious the role of the presenter discarding negatives.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  2
                                  • C cliff@lemmy.world

                                    Jesse, that’s not how probability fucking works.

                                    starman2112@sh.itjust.worksS This user is from outside of this forum
                                    starman2112@sh.itjust.worksS This user is from outside of this forum
                                    starman2112@sh.itjust.works
                                    wrote last edited by starman2112@sh.itjust.works
                                    #52

                                    Gosh it’s almost like I was joking by coming to a correct conclusion through faulty reasoning

                                    I mean I could have just been a complete dweeb and explain that the outcome of the second roll is unaffected by the outcome of the first, and you are just as likely to roll two ones in a row as you are to roll any two numbers, but then I’d have to find a locker to shove myself in

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • S stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                                      pyrflie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                                      wrote last edited by pyrflie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                                      #53

                                      I have a character that started with 14 12 10 8 4 3. In 2011.

                                      He is my only character that hasn’t been downed, and he is religiously restricted suicidal. He is a Life Cleric and HUGELY beneficial to the party; magically, politically, & financially.

                                      He is a 910 year old dwarf who has a guaranteed place in Elysium*. He just cant die of old age. He’s DESPERATE to die in combat.

                                      *Terms and conditions apply.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • S sbv@sh.itjust.works

                                        The trick is to say “this is just a practice roll” where the die can hear you, but wink at the GM so they know it’s the real roll. That way, the die will be a spiteful little punk and throw out the nat20 for the “practice”.

                                        But don’t do that too often, or the die will figure out the trick.

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                                        AwesomeLowlander
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #54

                                        And when the Nat 1 shows up, rub your eye because you had sand in it.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        5
                                        • T thatkamguy@sh.itjust.works

                                          Weirdly enough, it’s just the way probability works.

                                          Once something stops being a possibility, and becomes a fact (ie. dice are rolled, numbers known) - future probability is no longer affected (assuming independent events like die rolls).

                                          e.g. you have a 1/400 chance of rolling two 1s on a D20 back-to-back. But if your first roll is a 1, you’re back down to the standard 1/20 chance of doing it again - because one of the conditions has already been met.

                                          L This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          loreleisanktheship@lemmy.ml
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #55

                                          That’s very interesting to me (I am a bit mathematically illiterate when it comes to probability). Wouldn’t it still have a lower chance of being a 1 if you said you want your second roll to be the one that counts beforehand? Or would different permutations screw with the odds, say rolling a 12 then a 1, rolling a 15 and a 1, etc, counting towards unfavourable possibilities and bringing it back to 1/20?

                                          T 1 Reply Last reply
                                          1

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