Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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@codebyjeff@hachyderm.io @pluralistic@mamot.fr So firstly: some other countries suck as well, just to be clear. Just maybe not as much
. My wife getting her UK citizenship was far harder than it had any reason to be (answer questions on British TV shows I had never watchedβ, do an English test that required a much lower level than she'd had to demonstrate for existing profressional qualifications from a UK university, etc).But the main difference just seemed to be in the sheer volume of information you needed to find and submit, and obviously the more you submit the more there is that can be challenged, that you might have made a mistake on, that you might forget.
@mavnn @pluralistic yes, the forms, forms, forms is absolutely out of control
no debate there
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@mavnn @pluralistic yes, the forms, forms, forms is absolutely out of control
no debate there
@codebyjeff@hachyderm.io @pluralistic@mamot.fr βAs a counter example one of my cousins applied for Australian citizenship and was rejected but the process was shorter, cheaper, and the reasons given were clear cut (if borderline enough that they had tried applying regardless). The UK process was long and ridiculous in places, but it was always clear what you had to do next, and where you had to go to get it. The Italians rejected my request on the basis of a rule that they changed retroactively (yay, different right wing government of a few years back) but at least submitting the request took me a fairly small amount of time and money (hundreds of euros, maybe a day of work)
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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Meanwhile a certain E. Musk probably did a lot of that perjuring and defrauding.
But hey, if you can hang Kesslers syndrome over all our heads then I really meant to say that he is a really swell guy...
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic the whole deporting people who have open pending cases is absolutely atrocious and nobody is doing Jack shit about it. It's like the one clear thing they can bring uscis to court on
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But then my kid applied to university and was told that she should sign up for FASFA, which is the federal student loan and grant process; she got pretty good grades and there was a chance she could get a couple grand knocked off her tuition. Seemed like a good idea to me.
So we filled in the FASFA paperwork, and partway through, it asks if you are a naturalized citizen, and, if you are, it asks you to upload a copy of your certificate of citizenship.
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@pluralistic FAFSA? FERPA is a privacy act
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@jcsteh @pluralistic I have lived in the United States for nearly 30 years. The only thing left was the interview, but I withdrew my citizenship application in 2017. You can probably guess why.
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It's also a timely reminder of the awesome destructive power of a single billionaire. This week, I took a Southwest flight to visit my daughter at college for her 18th birthday, and of course, SWA now charges for bags and seats. Multiple passengers complained bitterly and loudly about this as they boarded (despite the fact that the plane was only half full, many people were given middle seats and banned from moving to empty rows).
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@pluralistic I had this EXACT same experience this week. Short SWA flight that was only half full. All the passengers squeezed together in the middle of the plane with rows of empty seats in front. And they made it very clear you had to remain your assigned seat.
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@pluralistic FAFSA? FERPA is a privacy act
@janeadams Right you are - thanks!
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@Thumper1964 @pluralistic @NicksWorld Most racists donβt know that they are racists.
Most fish donβt know what water is.
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@Thumper1964 @pluralistic @NicksWorld Most racists donβt know that they are racists.
Most fish donβt know what water is.
@ChemicalEyeGuy @Thumper1964 @pluralistic There are things that you would have to know if you're racist, for example, if you said the N-word in front of a Black person, you['d find out how bad taht really is so then you'd know you're racist, especially if you said it in a sentence where its malicious.
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@pluralistic Why would anyone - especially a canadian - even want to be s US citizen, is beyond me!
@pa27 @pluralistic
This essay might help explain itWhenever I despair about my country (which is often) I reread this
American
My admission stamp to the United States, August 28th, 1995. In 1995, at the beginning of the last week of August, on the afternoon of an inhumanly hot and intolerably humid day, I arrived at Newark Airport to live in the United States. I was twenty two years old and about to start as a graduate student at Princeton. I have been here more or less the whole time since. I spent six years on an F-1 Visa while getting my PhD. After that, I lived and worked in Tucson for seven years. My conception of what counts as an inhumanly hot day changed. During that time I was on an H1-B Visa sponsored by my employer, the University of Arizona. Subsequently, I was granted Permanent Residencyβa Green Cardβthrough marriage. In 2009 I moved to North Carolina. My conception of what counts as an intolerably humid day changed. I am an immigrant to this country. I have made my life here. My two children are Americans. And now, as of yesterday, so am I.
(kieranhealy.org)
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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I'm surprised about your experience. As a European, I thougt, that #USο»Ώ/ο»Ώ#Gilead (and other American) #immigration works as easy as:
"You go there, kill the existing population, and settle. Optionally, BYOS (bring your own slaves) from elsewhere."
It used to be like that. Good ol' times.
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@ChemicalEyeGuy @Thumper1964 @pluralistic There are things that you would have to know if you're racist, for example, if you said the N-word in front of a Black person, you['d find out how bad taht really is so then you'd know you're racist, especially if you said it in a sentence where its malicious.
@NicksWorld @Thumper1964 @pluralistic Lotta racists have used the n-word in malicious ways and directed at Black people, and yet they continue to believe that they are not #racist. https://youtu.be/9uvJzr0zZvk?si=0yFL6rDo5pSh0BL2
Long term #CognitiveDissonance causes #mentalhealth problems.
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@ChemicalEyeGuy @Thumper1964 @pluralistic There are things that you would have to know if you're racist, for example, if you said the N-word in front of a Black person, you['d find out how bad taht really is so then you'd know you're racist, especially if you said it in a sentence where its malicious.
@NicksWorld @Thumper1964 @pluralistic Lotta racists have used the n-word in malicious ways and directed at Black people, and yet they continue to believe that they are not #racist. https://youtu.be/9uvJzr0zZvk?si=0yFL6rDo5pSh0BL2
Long term #CognitiveDissonance causes #mentalhealth problems.
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But the US citizenship test is the *easy* part. That test sits at the center of a bureaucratic maze that no American could find their way through.
eof/
That the system is impossible to navigate without error is a feature, not a bug.
The inevitable errors go unnoticed, so long as no one in power has reason to notice them.
They get the immigrants they want, and an easy way to get rid of people they don't want.The aim of a police state is to make it necessary to commit crimes to survive. The police choose which crimes to enforce, and which not, and that gives them power over people.
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@pluralistic yeah, I'm sorry but I'm tired of
"'by international standards"
as a stand in for Britain, Canada, Europe & America
We may or may not have a shit process, but I doubt you researched the rest of the world to determine what is "normal"
I live in Japan, and good luck becoming a full-time resident here
No one claims to believe that Japan welcomes immigrants.
That said, someone I know has just managed to get Japanese citizenship, and it was tough, but not as bad as what was described above.
Tough but fair, perhaps.
@codebyjeff @pluralistic -
@jcsteh @pluralistic I have lived in the United States for nearly 30 years. The only thing left was the interview, but I withdrew my citizenship application in 2017. You can probably guess why.
Comedian Ronny Cheng said that applying for citizenship under Obama and getting Donald Trump was like going to see Beyonce and getting Donald Trump.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
1/
@pluralistic the cruelty is of course the point.
It's similar here in the UK. "If only they came here legally", the Reformers cry about refugees arriving on small boats. As if A) this isn't actually legal and B) this doesn't only happen because all practical routes have been shut down by the government.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
1/
@pluralistic
Whenever anyone says they're "proud to be an American" I congratulate them on getting through the US naturalization process, which is difficult. If they respond they were just born there, I have to say "dude, your parents did that, not you!" -
not to waste your time in things I can look up, but what could people do efficiently in other countries that they couldn't do in the US?
Full disclosure: My wife is Japanese and had a green card in the US before we moved to Japan
We didn't follow through to her becoming a citizen, but what we did to deal with her green card involved a total of 1 meeting and a couple of forms
I have seen how others around us who weren't coming from a first world country to marry an American were being treated - I'm not trying to defend that
I'm challenging the statement that it is worse than applying in other countries
Honestly, I skimmed the main article and found it full of emotions and low on facts and nothing at all like what my wife went through
But I WILL admit that US govt processes are a mare's nest. Often times, ironically, in an effort to be fair.
Also, ironically - this complaint against American bureaucracy is one of MAGA's biggest compliants
@mavnn @pluralistic @codebyjeff
You're not wrong. Every country tries to make it hard for poorer people to immigrate. I'm married to a very organized white woman who drowned the application in documents. It went smoothly since it is the most straightforward and easiest way to become a citizen. And we had it easy. Even then the vagueness of questions that put you at risk of defrauding is immense. We didn't have chatbots 4 years ago when I was in the process but the time we spent on the phone was huge. And there are mistakes that happen (by their agents) and there's no way you can iron out those with a chatbot. The system is built so it is complicated, frustrating and in a way, in the end if they choose to, they can blame you for false information and escalate it to defrauding and cancel all out. So you can feel it's not an honest system.
