@0xabad1dea yes! So much of all of this. The expectations and elitism of some people is just.. something.

@techvvitch @0xabad1dea they're not intentionally being assholes y'know. They're telling you what they themselves would do or have done. One can only speak from one's own personal experience, it's not their fault that other people have different experience.

I got a lot of flak over the years from "unrealistic" expectations of others, about things that I had already done for myself. It's natural to assume everyone else thinks like you, even though it's usually untrue.

Examples of things that people with average computer literacy can “just” do:

- just reboot it

- just email it to yourself [unless it’s over 25MB or contains an executable in which case you’re not gonna “just” anything]

- just use an iPhone instead

Examples of things people with average computer literacy absolutely cannot “just” do:

- just use Linux

- just run your own email server

- just replace this polished, slick-onboarding but expensive software with a foss alternative but make sure you use this fork because the official one had some drama and it’s kind of poorly maintained and also just simply be someone who doesn’t need accessibility features or just implement the accessibility features yourself in a special dialect of C++ that just needs a particular build of gcc from 1997 available on an ftp server that only appears during the Witching Hour on a new moon

- just use a VPN, one that’s not a privacy-violating scam I mean

- just set up a separate media server and torrent all your shows and connect all the kids’ devices to it and just don’t catch a virus or get scary legal threats in the mail doing this

- just refrain from decking your smug “helpful” computer-literate cousin in the face

a clarifying followup thought: “just use Linux” is implicitly in the context of “install it yourself to replace Windows and a few dozen different apps on your computer that you use for a wide variety of tasks.” Chromebooks run Chrome and Steam Decks run Steam, both of which are apps available on Windows that many people with average computer literacy are already exposed to — which is exactly why they’re successful; “Linux” is an implementation detail that’s not imposing a learning barrier. Those users are using Linux in the sense that Nintendo Switch users are using FreeBSD.

If you want to use that as an on-ramp for teaching people — “you probably have something in your house that already runs Linux, here’s some fun examples” — that’s great!, but you have to TEACH people how to use Linux as an everyday driver OS, and they need to have the time and interest to learn.

Examples of things that people with average computer literacy can “just” do:

- just reboot it

- just email it to yourself [unless it’s over 25MB or contains an executable in which case you’re not gonna “just” anything]

- just use an iPhone instead

Examples of things people with average computer literacy absolutely cannot “just” do:

- just use Linux

- just run your own email server

- just replace this polished, slick-onboarding but expensive software with a foss alternative but make sure you use this fork because the official one had some drama and it’s kind of poorly maintained and also just simply be someone who doesn’t need accessibility features or just implement the accessibility features yourself in a special dialect of C++ that just needs a particular build of gcc from 1997 available on an ftp server that only appears during the Witching Hour on a new moon

- just use a VPN, one that’s not a privacy-violating scam I mean

- just set up a separate media server and torrent all your shows and connect all the kids’ devices to it and just don’t catch a virus or get scary legal threats in the mail doing this

- just refrain from decking your smug “helpful” computer-literate cousin in the face

a clarifying followup thought: “just use Linux” is implicitly in the context of “install it yourself to replace Windows and a few dozen different apps on your computer that you use for a wide variety of tasks.” Chromebooks run Chrome and Steam Decks run Steam, both of which are apps available on Windows that many people with average computer literacy are already exposed to — which is exactly why they’re successful; “Linux” is an implementation detail that’s not imposing a learning barrier. Those users are using Linux in the sense that Nintendo Switch users are using FreeBSD.

If you want to use that as an on-ramp for teaching people — “you probably have something in your house that already runs Linux, here’s some fun examples” — that’s great!, but you have to TEACH people how to use Linux as an everyday driver OS, and they need to have the time and interest to learn.

@0xabad1dea I doubt someone's computer literacy if they recommend spinning up your own email server. Like yes, I absolutely love spending hundreds of hours banging my head against a wall only to have Google and Microsoft block emails from me because I'm missing some esoteric header, totally worth my time.

@techvvitch @0xabad1dea it is just as unreasonable of you, to expect your computer literate friend to implicitly recognize & understand your limitations and unfamiliarity with the tech, as you seem to think they are, for making suggestions outside your own comfort zone.

Examples of things that people with average computer literacy can “just” do:

- just reboot it

- just email it to yourself [unless it’s over 25MB or contains an executable in which case you’re not gonna “just” anything]

- just use an iPhone instead

Examples of things people with average computer literacy absolutely cannot “just” do:

- just use Linux

- just run your own email server

- just replace this polished, slick-onboarding but expensive software with a foss alternative but make sure you use this fork because the official one had some drama and it’s kind of poorly maintained and also just simply be someone who doesn’t need accessibility features or just implement the accessibility features yourself in a special dialect of C++ that just needs a particular build of gcc from 1997 available on an ftp server that only appears during the Witching Hour on a new moon

- just use a VPN, one that’s not a privacy-violating scam I mean

- just set up a separate media server and torrent all your shows and connect all the kids’ devices to it and just don’t catch a virus or get scary legal threats in the mail doing this

- just refrain from decking your smug “helpful” computer-literate cousin in the face

Examples of things that people with average computer literacy can “just” do:

- just reboot it

- just email it to yourself [unless it’s over 25MB or contains an executable in which case you’re not gonna “just” anything]

- just use an iPhone instead

Examples of things people with average computer literacy absolutely cannot “just” do:

- just use Linux

- just run your own email server

- just replace this polished, slick-onboarding but expensive software with a foss alternative but make sure you use this fork because the official one had some drama and it’s kind of poorly maintained and also just simply be someone who doesn’t need accessibility features or just implement the accessibility features yourself in a special dialect of C++ that just needs a particular build of gcc from 1997 available on an ftp server that only appears during the Witching Hour on a new moon

- just use a VPN, one that’s not a privacy-violating scam I mean

- just set up a separate media server and torrent all your shows and connect all the kids’ devices to it and just don’t catch a virus or get scary legal threats in the mail doing this

- just refrain from decking your smug “helpful” computer-literate cousin in the face

@0xabad1dea

> slick-onboarding but expensive software

If all this software was only expensive, we'd have lost the fight for free software long ago. Fortunately it's often enshittified and the slick-onboarding is better called a bait.

Not taking any position on who can do what. My impression on people who are still using exclusively bought and proprietary software down to the OS is rather:

- Cannot ask for help (yes, "just do ..." is typically impossible. But that's the way the absolutely want to do it).
- If they got a problem, they want a silver bullet and if it doesn't come they think it's withheld with malicious intent.
- Of course (and I really can understand that) they don't like unsolicited advice.

Long ago, in an Indian(?) fast food restaurant with family owner belonging ot a specific religious group, they had a text hanging on the wall "Do not desire to achieve without effort".

And that's the point: Everything comes with a "price". Personal effort or dependency or just money. I see a lot of people unsatisfied with the effort (but see below) they think they have to put in with open alternatives, but then also unsatisfied with price/ quality / data protection / lack of autonomy in the proprietary software they are currently using.

In the end it's a question of the price (in the wider sense) they want to pay: The pain they have with what they currently use or a steep learning curve (but see below) with some effort they have to put in to go to the open alternatives.

There is, I agree, hardly anything that can "just" be done (no, actually, not even mail to yourself or, as the case may be, moving a file to an USB stick --- you haven't seen the generation of my father, 2 decades long computer users, handling those tasks). But the expectation is already off: "Do not desire to achieve without effort". You cannot even "just" drive a bike, or a car. It only seems effortless now, because you learned it much earlier.

Now about the actual effort: That needs to go into a follow-up reply.

@hyc @techvvitch @0xabad1dea I'm having difficulty understanding how you read "Try to think about approaching the problem differently and adapting your advice to be more accessible to the person you give it to", and then thought that "LISTEN I'M NOT FUCKING PSYCHIC OKAY" was an applicable response.

Like....

Lead with curiosity. "Hey, I'm having this problem" "okay, before I start diving into this, what have you already tried?"

This will give you fantastic insight into their skill level - are they just seeing a dialog box and kermit-flailing? Have they already googled the problem and tried some of the troubleshooting steps they found? Are they wary about downloading what might be the correct file to actually solve the problem because the website looks sketchy as hell? ALL OF THESE THINGS CAN (AND SHOULD) INFORM YOUR RESPONSE.

It's not that fucking hard.

@0xabad1dea

I think I don't understand how your two paragraphs connect because in the second you talk about everyday usage and in the first you talk about installation.

I agree that having to install the OS was always too big a hurdle and obstacle for most people, on the other hand I genuinely wonder if it's all that hard to mainly use Ubuntu on a desktop/laptop as a non-technical person who mainly wants to browse the internet.

@0xabad1dea The best way to convince somebody to use Linux is not to tell them to use Linux, but supporting them in what they are doing already and *proposing* alternatives to the software (not operating systems) they are already using. That way they get a good impression of the "Linux community" (if that is a thing) and see that open-source software is not lesser than closed-source.

@Rusty @0xabad1dea Heh. As someone who has his own E-mail server and knows how to run it:

If I were doing it all over again, I would NOT “just" run my own E-mail server.

My boss is a UNIX greybeard with massive experience going a decade longer than me, and even he's stopped doing so for his personal stuff.

It's just... NOT fun these days. Not so much the technical aspect, but the whole "getting the network you're sending from trusted by everyone else" problem.

@zorinlynx @Rusty @0xabad1dea My website came with a mail server attached and SOMETHING in the software just started to silent fail to send emails a couple years ago if I use mobile Thunderbird (the app formerly known as K-9 mail). It appears to be some issue with how K-9 and now Thunderbird implemented a certain header for privacy...

So yeah... self hosting has headaches.

@0xabad1dea This (a) is 100% correct and (b) made me laugh out loud. So many geeks forget that most people don't have the slightest idea how to do loads of stuff they can't even remember learning.

@0xabad1dea

Oh. I see you muted this thread. No reason to go on now about the effort, how everybody can plug in an Ubuntu USB stick (obtained from the friendly geek in the family) and test drive (and they can "just" do this, I did some focus group testing ...) or even install Ubuntu on their computer with a mouse click.

The only thing they cannot "just" do (AFAICS, I don't know what the Ubuntu installler actually says), is to install Ubuntu besides an already pre-installed Windows. That typically requires some expert surgery.

(And yes, they cannot "just" run their own mail-server, typically, but also they need not buy the service with Google mail).

I am willing to follow this up with details (so, people out there, don't think that is all) not just for a thread muted by the OP.

@squishymage42 @zorinlynx @0xabad1dea Yeah for sure ​ I self-host a lot of things, but email is just too much of a pain. Big Tech made sure of that.

That said, it seems like your host should be providing the header over POP3/IMAP, so I'm curious why that's breaking. Is there an open bug report about it on Thunderbird Mobile?