This is an absolutely insane take. Vicious Mockery is the the least damaging cantrip (or like bottom three). Further, it’s a cantrip, something players are supposed to be able to easily without resource consumption. Expecting a player to come up with unique insults every time they cast this is stupid and exhausting. Also, the reason it’s “as effective as power word kill on common folk” is because common folk are weak and meant to weak. They’re not heroes.

Spell casters using cantrips is akin to fighters making normal attacks, swinging a sword.

I can’t imagine surviving 55 rounds of combat against a dragon. Are people thinking this is a video game or something where you can just simply not take damage from a dragon if you’re skilled enough or something?

yeah even for a hypothetical it’s stretching the bounds of believability

Ermmm actually ️ you don’t roll when casting Vicious Mockery, the target does, so the best case scenario for the caster would be the target rolling a natural 1.

So are you going to nerf every class similarly?

Bard

Vicious Mockery: avg 10 / 55 casts

Cleric

Word of Radiance: avg 13.5 / 41 casts
Sacred flame: avg 18 / 31 casts

Druid

Produce Flame: avg 11 / 50 casts
Poison Spray: avg 22.5 / 25 casts

Sorcerer

Acid Splash: avg 10.5 / 52 casts

Warlock

Chill Touch: avg 11 / 50 casts

Wizard

Ray of Frost: avg 11 / 50 casts

Artificer

Thunderclap: avg 13.5 / 41 casts

Also, the reason it’s “as effective as power word kill on common folk” is because common folk are weak and meant to weak. They’re not heroes.

Fly swats are overpowered because they’re as effective as a machine gun at killing flies.

It got buffed to a d6 in 5.5e

But then again, with this math they’re talking about 5e, so your point stands

Wall of force lasts 10 minutes, just saying

Ignoring the actual rules and mechanics is basically step one in almost every “isn’t this goofy” D&D anecdote.

Not only is it not “decent damage” (even the buff it got in 5.5 just brings it from “the worst” to “poor”), it’s also not a subtle thing you can just drop on someone unsuspectingly.

Spellcasting for an attack is an obvious aggressive action, which means an initiative roll comes first to see if you even manage to get it off before they clock you. It’s also not like everyone around just shrugs and lets you go about your business because all you did was hurl an insult. You attacked someone with an offensive spell, the response is exactly the same as if you threw a firebolt at them

The flavor of insulting someone to death is fun, I’ll grant that, but there’s nothing special about Vicious Mockery mechanically that makes it immune to initiative order or people noticing what you’re doing.

I mean, just look at their example. Level 17+ for the math? Holy shiiiiiit. At levels 15+, you’re basically living legends that are about to start conquering kingdoms singlehandedly and fighting gods. That’s not “a talented musician,” that’s the dude who leads month long rave parties that brings in all the nobility’s children and starts a religion that is then used with said children to start coups in the continental region.

Ha while you were Chaining Lightning and Disintegrating Polymorphs, I studied THE ARTS

don’t call me when the Barbarians are at your Gates

It’s important for others reading this that they realize a cat can kill a commoner in one attack. A magic user using magic shouldn’t be shocking, even when that magic is flavored as an insult.

You might be able to find some cheese strat. One good trick is to use a Phantom Steed to constantly outrange your opponent. But Vicious Mockery doesn’t have enough range to make that effective.

I’m sure someone can figure out a method, but Vicious Mockery isn’t going to be the interesting part.

Would it fit? I suppose technically the rules say a gargantuan creature is 20 feet by 20 feet or larger, and you can make a ten foot radius sphere with Wall of Force.

But also, that would give it total cover, and Vicious Mockery does not grant itself an exception from that. Message is the only one I know of that does.

That’s still applying video game logic though. Dragons are smart. They wouldn’t just endlessly pursue you if they’re taking chip damage. They’d fly away. They’d fly towards cities and destroy them to make you stop. The idea one would have contingencies in place isn’t unheard of either, they’re like evil geniuses.

See what they need is a bard who raps. A bit if speed-rap and they’d be throwing out deadly cantrips like a human machine-gun

“You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range.”

…its only component is verbal, and while it’s not subtle casting it’s fair to characterise as subtle casting; i’d argue for first-round surprise in the context of open dialog and in fact that’s how we’ve played it at my tables…

I’m okay with a DM ruling that it’s possible to cast it in such a way that someone is taken off guard, sure. Maybe a performance or deception vs hostile creature(s) insight rather than the typical stealth vs perception when determining surprise from sneaking, which is not RAW, but I think sounds reasonable. I’d definitely not consider it to be an automatic aspect of the spell at any table I ran.

And you absolutely could not avoid a fight and just walk away from the situation with plausible deniability because you “only insulted them”.

Eminem would be so OP in D&D

Drake failed that perception check real hard