Let's do this.
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@anthropy It already is on a overspecced cable, there is something really think going there saying 50A or something on it, but it's not helping much. xD
And yeah, I can put all my energy users on that phase and rewire half my house LOL, that ain't easy either and can cause other issues. There is a reason why this is no longer an allowed setup, with a 3 phase inverter the export resistance is a sqrt3 of a single phase and it doesn't cause grid imbalance. A modern smart inverter can probably even generate more power to one phase based on usage perhaps?
Anyway all expensive solutions with the economically cheapest solution still being to just disconnect the solar panels and perhaps get rid of them is insane. >.>
Off grid is cool and makes sense with all the issues, but also feels like giving up and definitely a bit shady for a city house. All because our government sucked at anticipating the energy transition.
@maruno Off grid doesn't have to be as complicated as it sounds honestly! My inverter is actually a 'bit of both' and can even return energy to the grid if needed.
The main thing you need for offgrid is for the incoming mains, and solar panels, to be diverted to the inverter, and the breaker panel that feeds the rest of the house being connected to that same inverter through a single wire that would otherwise be your mains input. It's basically just 2/3 extra (admittedly chonky) wires.
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Let's do this.
@TechConnectify So a few clarifications nobody will ever read: 1. Hydrocarbons are dead trees which are renewed but very slowly. The tree is the best solar panel with integrated battery. Just takes say 100.000 years to renew. 2. You cannot replace organic energy with metal energy, because you cannot create metal from scratch without coal, oil and gas; and recycling it is only partly a solution. 3. Nuclear (and fusion) is just boiling the planet with atoms instead. 4. The real problem is food.
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Let's do this.
@TechConnectify Couldn't do 90 minutes, but plenty of great info. Realistically, if communities don't push their local officials to reserve a chunk of land for solar, instead of selling it off to developers for AI or PUDs, then residents are stuck having to pay the costs individually to privatized money hungry utility companies and opportunists slinging panels.
Separate the grid into a residential circuit (solar) public owned utility and commercial circuit (whatever the fuck they want) privatized utility and the cost won't be so prohibitive for the average person. When the community needs more energy it buys it from the private circuit, when it has more, it sells it back. Individuals all doing this on their own, negates the very benefit of living/participating in a community.
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@pfriedma @f4grx @BalooUriza true, you can't use these in an outage. They don't oscillate themselves, need the grid to follow it (not an expert, @balkonsolar know the details probably). So for danger, the remaining thing is the shape of the plug, with the german "SchuKo" style hiding the pins until the connection is severed, which isn't quite so easy with these flat US-style sockets i guess... There's still discussion about "but what if i really quickly pull the plug out" though...
@derdo OK, so can't use 'em in an outage because there's nothing stopping the power escaping the house back up grid... so what's protecting the circuit you're plugging into? Is that also nothing? At least in NEMA world, this would be the case, which would mean it's also a fire hazard and electric shock hazard for the user...
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@BalooUriza @pfriedma @f4grx @balkonsolar
A grid-tied solar PV inverter isn't like a gas generator. It follows the grid waveform and will cut out within one cycle if the grid is lost. Unplugging the inverter, the plug is dead before the pins are exposed to be touched.At 230V, 800W (the German limit for plugin solar) is ~3.5A. The German electrical regulator has deemed that a typical 16A power circuit wired in 1.5 sq.mm. cable will still be safe with 3.5A of current fed from the "wrong end".
@sheddi OK, but where's the breaker that guarantees that?
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@derdo OK, so can't use 'em in an outage because there's nothing stopping the power escaping the house back up grid... so what's protecting the circuit you're plugging into? Is that also nothing? At least in NEMA world, this would be the case, which would mean it's also a fire hazard and electric shock hazard for the user...
@BalooUriza
The inverter itself has afi/gfi and a breaker. Someone mentioned the limit is < 5a so it's supplemental to the circuit breaker on the panel.
@derdo @f4grx @balkonsolar -
@BalooUriza
The inverter itself has afi/gfi and a breaker. Someone mentioned the limit is < 5a so it's supplemental to the circuit breaker on the panel.
@derdo @f4grx @balkonsolar@pfriedma That's considerably less terrifying but everybody is seeing why this just screams unsafe to me right?
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Let's do this.
@TechConnectify Finally got to watch it (okay, half way in but still) - this is a brilliant rundown of the facts. Very, very well done!
/e: Okay, I did not expect that ending. That part was no less brilliant than the techical part. Stay strong over there and take care!
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@pfriedma That's considerably less terrifying but everybody is seeing why this just screams unsafe to me right?
@BalooUriza
Yes and no. If it was just a dumb device spitting out voltage yes but the tech to do fancy safety operations has existed for quite some time. Like, I've seen systems that push kVs through a cable but the instant the supply defects capacitance changes (like from your hand approaching it) the voltage is cut. So a lot less terrifying when you realize what controls are in place. You *can* do these things safely, there are just more factors to consider.
We have a back feed generator interconnect system at home. It has a hardware interlock for the mains breaker to prevent it from energizing the lines feeding the house because its purpose is to run when grid power fails. Within the house, the breakers do their thing, but realistically the inverter is much more sensitive to faults. The last power outage was how we found out there was a current leak in the kitchen, because the inverter alarmed when that circuit was enabled (fixed now) even through the GFCI outlets appeared to be fine on mains power.
@f4grx @balkonsolar @derdo -
@BalooUriza
Yes and no. If it was just a dumb device spitting out voltage yes but the tech to do fancy safety operations has existed for quite some time. Like, I've seen systems that push kVs through a cable but the instant the supply defects capacitance changes (like from your hand approaching it) the voltage is cut. So a lot less terrifying when you realize what controls are in place. You *can* do these things safely, there are just more factors to consider.
We have a back feed generator interconnect system at home. It has a hardware interlock for the mains breaker to prevent it from energizing the lines feeding the house because its purpose is to run when grid power fails. Within the house, the breakers do their thing, but realistically the inverter is much more sensitive to faults. The last power outage was how we found out there was a current leak in the kitchen, because the inverter alarmed when that circuit was enabled (fixed now) even through the GFCI outlets appeared to be fine on mains power.
@f4grx @balkonsolar @derdo@pfriedma Yeah, the system my neighbor used was similar but the back feed generator interconnect was to select the locally generated solar and wind resources, fall back to the grid power as a source, or use grid power as a sink, and that was *mostly* automatic, and using contactors. Knowing how that system worked is why I'm looking at this plugin PV and thinking the only saving grace in terms of fire safety is that it's 5A.
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@pfriedma That's considerably less terrifying but everybody is seeing why this just screams unsafe to me right?
@BalooUriza @pfriedma @f4grx @balkonsolar @derdo The entire balcony solar ecosystem seems to run on "trust me, bro": https://akkoma.pikaböl.se/notice/B0R5fpXelwpqdMCPKa
Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'm not letting any equipment designed with an energised male power plug into my home. If you want local generation, you have a professional wire it into the breaker panel with lots of warning labels.
Then again, my balconies face east and west and the sun hasn't been above the tree tops since October, so I'm not exactly in the target market anyway. -
@pfriedma Yeah, the system my neighbor used was similar but the back feed generator interconnect was to select the locally generated solar and wind resources, fall back to the grid power as a source, or use grid power as a sink, and that was *mostly* automatic, and using contactors. Knowing how that system worked is why I'm looking at this plugin PV and thinking the only saving grace in terms of fire safety is that it's 5A.
@BalooUriza
Yeah the constraint of "at least half as much current as the smallest likely breaker" is doing heavy lifting for fire safety... In the US it would have to be either like 500w or the "plug" would likely want to be a 5-20 to prevent you from e.g plugging a 20a supply into a 10a circuit (though even in this case the inverter could detect a overheat condition based on change in resistance and trip...I don't know that I'd trust just that if I had particularly flammable wires like knob and tube in walls with blown insulation) -
@BalooUriza @pfriedma @f4grx @balkonsolar @derdo The entire balcony solar ecosystem seems to run on "trust me, bro": https://akkoma.pikaböl.se/notice/B0R5fpXelwpqdMCPKa
Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'm not letting any equipment designed with an energised male power plug into my home. If you want local generation, you have a professional wire it into the breaker panel with lots of warning labels.
Then again, my balconies face east and west and the sun hasn't been above the tree tops since October, so I'm not exactly in the target market anyway.@creideiki OK, good, so it's not just me and my NEMA-style wiring idea of electricity that's making me squeamish to this idea, since I need a little more than "trust me bro" on "things that'll kill me faster than an Oklahoma ambulance shows up"
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@creideiki OK, good, so it's not just me and my NEMA-style wiring idea of electricity that's making me squeamish to this idea, since I need a little more than "trust me bro" on "things that'll kill me faster than an Oklahoma ambulance shows up"
@BalooUriza
I think the thing to remember is that the plug isn't actually energized the way you're thinking. It plugs in as a consuming device *first* then "negotiates" then pushes power back. When unplugged it's not still live, it's like you unplugged a TV.
@creideiki @f4grx @balkonsolar @derdo -
@BalooUriza @pfriedma @f4grx @balkonsolar @derdo The entire balcony solar ecosystem seems to run on "trust me, bro": https://akkoma.pikaböl.se/notice/B0R5fpXelwpqdMCPKa
Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'm not letting any equipment designed with an energised male power plug into my home. If you want local generation, you have a professional wire it into the breaker panel with lots of warning labels.
Then again, my balconies face east and west and the sun hasn't been above the tree tops since October, so I'm not exactly in the target market anyway.@creideiki That said, solar's been good enough for long enough now that you might be able to at least cover vampire power with solar with an east-west exposure. I mean, look at the tropical paradise of Portland, Oregon: The light rail trains, rail/foot/road traffic signaling systems and the street lighting on the central transit mall (several kilometers long and two blocks wide, a couplet) is powered exclusively by a single SW-into-a-hill solar array and battery station.
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@creideiki That said, solar's been good enough for long enough now that you might be able to at least cover vampire power with solar with an east-west exposure. I mean, look at the tropical paradise of Portland, Oregon: The light rail trains, rail/foot/road traffic signaling systems and the street lighting on the central transit mall (several kilometers long and two blocks wide, a couplet) is powered exclusively by a single SW-into-a-hill solar array and battery station.
@creideiki Realistically that thing's never going to ever see direct sunlight before 10 AM or after 7PM in the middle of summer, and in the winter it's only gonna get thick overcast light from about 8AM to 4PM, and it's still powering all that. And this isn't a new install, that's like, 2006.
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@BalooUriza
I think the thing to remember is that the plug isn't actually energized the way you're thinking. It plugs in as a consuming device *first* then "negotiates" then pushes power back. When unplugged it's not still live, it's like you unplugged a TV.
@creideiki @f4grx @balkonsolar @derdo@pfriedma Yeah that's still coming back around to "trust me bro" on something that's getting plugged in downstream of all circuit protection and provides an energized male plug.
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@TechConnectify Haven't watched the video yet, but have you ever considered uploading your videos to #peertube? I think if anyone has an audience that would carry over pretty well to Peertube it's you. And one of the biggest issues with Peertube at the moment is a lack of high quality content and creators.
@techindepth27 @TechConnectify some previous videos were on peertube though a mirror :
Technology Connections (mirror)
This channel is synced to mirror https://www.youtube.com/@TechnologyConnections
GravTube (peertube.gravitywell.xyz)
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@creideiki That said, solar's been good enough for long enough now that you might be able to at least cover vampire power with solar with an east-west exposure. I mean, look at the tropical paradise of Portland, Oregon: The light rail trains, rail/foot/road traffic signaling systems and the street lighting on the central transit mall (several kilometers long and two blocks wide, a couplet) is powered exclusively by a single SW-into-a-hill solar array and battery station.
@BalooUriza Portland is still 15 degrees south of me. The southernmost part of Sweden is pretty much at the same latitude as the southernmost part of Alaska, and my latitude is within easy driving distance south from Anchorage. -
Let's do this.
@TechConnectify If you put some sheep on the solar farm, you don't even have to mow the grass.
