👴🏻ICE is out of control!
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ICE is out of control! Immunity from prosecution is out of the question for an organization that brutalizes protesters and kills citizens in the street!
Thank you! And cops that brutalize and kill Black folk should not have immunity from prosecution either! End it!No wait that one's different
@mekkaokereke
Seems logical to me -
@mekkaokereke @D_J_Nathanson I was clearly mixed up completely in my head by multiple people lmao, I meant Niemöller, I have been dealing with too many names recently clearly, I'll edit the post!
@GLaDTheresCake
Good post
Also, were you thinking of Popper?, as in Karl Popper? -
@mekkaokereke There was a genuine push to end or limit qualified civil immunity for cops after George Floyd was murdered. Establishment Democrats resisted and even undermined that push, keeping in place a source of danger to BIPOC and LGBTQ+ folks, deflating the base, and setting the stage for Stephen Miller telling ICE agents that they have "total" immunity to kill people.
They should have listened to us then. They should listen to us now.
@D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke they're like movie producers - worried about money mainly, and making big bland assumptions about what the majority will say yes to. And like producers they don't learn from counter evidence: the indie films that everyone loves, the victories of the progressive left. They have resources and lack courage
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@D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke If the US comes through this, there is so much to be set in stone for the future. I see (as a white dude in Canada) so many voices from different groups saying "Yes, it's terrible, but it has always been this way for us." It has to be set right for everyone.
@Dtraslerwriting @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
Absolutely it should be set right for everyone ... but that will require starting over; I predict the response will be:
1) We just need to breath for a bit
2) Lets start with these patches that will fix a bit
3) We will get to the root problems someday
4) someday never comesI'll be pushing for more, because even though I'm white, and can pass for male, I'm non-binary, neurodivergent, and have been (at least partially) woken.
I hope I'm wrong, and enough people with power will be woken by the time we get through this ... but I'm depressed today.
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@GLaDTheresCake
Good post
Also, were you thinking of Popper?, as in Karl Popper?@mloxton @mekkaokereke @D_J_Nathanson Maybe, who knows, I think my brain just short circuited mostly lmao
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@Dtraslerwriting @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
Absolutely it should be set right for everyone ... but that will require starting over; I predict the response will be:
1) We just need to breath for a bit
2) Lets start with these patches that will fix a bit
3) We will get to the root problems someday
4) someday never comesI'll be pushing for more, because even though I'm white, and can pass for male, I'm non-binary, neurodivergent, and have been (at least partially) woken.
I hope I'm wrong, and enough people with power will be woken by the time we get through this ... but I'm depressed today.
@Retreival9096 @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
The difficult answer (and I know talking hypothetically is easy) is for the reconstruction to be led by those who were most oppressed in the old regime. People of colour, Trans folk, LGBTQ+, women. It's a big ask, because these (and the others I failed to mention) are the ones who have had to fight for existence. But they can build a world that starts with inclusion. -
ICE is out of control! Immunity from prosecution is out of the question for an organization that brutalizes protesters and kills citizens in the street!Thank you! And cops that brutalize and kill Black folk should not have immunity from prosecution either! End it!No wait that one's different
@mekkaokereke I would say nobody should ever have 100% immunity from prosecution. That's just giving people permission to unleash their worst impulses.
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@D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke If the US comes through this, there is so much to be set in stone for the future. I see (as a white dude in Canada) so many voices from different groups saying "Yes, it's terrible, but it has always been this way for us." It has to be set right for everyone.
@Dtraslerwriting @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
This is not new for some of us. -
@Dtraslerwriting @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
This is not new for some of us.@rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke Yes. I absolutely hear that, and it must not be forgotten. Fixing the US can't be about going back to "Pre-Trump". It has to be started with guaranteeing the rights of all those people who have never had the equality the constitution said they should have. And more.
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@rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke Yes. I absolutely hear that, and it must not be forgotten. Fixing the US can't be about going back to "Pre-Trump". It has to be started with guaranteeing the rights of all those people who have never had the equality the constitution said they should have. And more.
@Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke We need to draft a blueprint for a new democratic US.
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@rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke Yes. I absolutely hear that, and it must not be forgotten. Fixing the US can't be about going back to "Pre-Trump". It has to be started with guaranteeing the rights of all those people who have never had the equality the constitution said they should have. And more.
@Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke It should be about picking up reconstruction where they abandoned it ... i.e. explicitly acknowledging that some parties are bad faith actors, not just an equal opposite viewpoint, whose illegal actions must be prosecuted, not explained away or ignored as water under the bridge, and whose future actions must be closely and strictly regulated. Make reconstruction great agai---this time.
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@Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke It should be about picking up reconstruction where they abandoned it ... i.e. explicitly acknowledging that some parties are bad faith actors, not just an equal opposite viewpoint, whose illegal actions must be prosecuted, not explained away or ignored as water under the bridge, and whose future actions must be closely and strictly regulated. Make reconstruction great agai---this time.
@independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
we desperately need to learn from Germany's denazification project (which, itself, wasn't 100% successful, as AFD demonstrates, and is complicated by the whole two-state system during the cold war, but was still a hell of a lot better than anything the US ever did) -
J Jürgen Hubert shared this topic
P Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary shared this topic
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@independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
we desperately need to learn from Germany's denazification project (which, itself, wasn't 100% successful, as AFD demonstrates, and is complicated by the whole two-state system during the cold war, but was still a hell of a lot better than anything the US ever did)@LeBonk @independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke (not so) sorry to rain on your parade:
I wouldn’t call our denazification project a success story.
We had WAY too many Nazis in influential positions during the Cold War. This was true for judges, professors, police, etc.
Sadly, the English Wikipedia is missing all the NSDAP/SS ties of the BKA, and only has an article for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Dickopf, but that one’s a good primer on the founders of our federal police… -
@LeBonk @independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke (not so) sorry to rain on your parade:
I wouldn’t call our denazification project a success story.
We had WAY too many Nazis in influential positions during the Cold War. This was true for judges, professors, police, etc.
Sadly, the English Wikipedia is missing all the NSDAP/SS ties of the BKA, and only has an article for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Dickopf, but that one’s a good primer on the founders of our federal police…@danyow @LeBonk @independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
Paperclip. Operation Paperclip.
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@danyow @LeBonk @independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
Paperclip. Operation Paperclip.
@rayocentric @danyow @LeBonk @independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @mekkaokereke This is where my brain immediately went.
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@LeBonk @independentpen @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke (not so) sorry to rain on your parade:
I wouldn’t call our denazification project a success story.
We had WAY too many Nazis in influential positions during the Cold War. This was true for judges, professors, police, etc.
Sadly, the English Wikipedia is missing all the NSDAP/SS ties of the BKA, and only has an article for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Dickopf, but that one’s a good primer on the founders of our federal police…@danyow @LeBonk @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke I know almost nothing about this, but didn't Germany do some good work on its education system to make it clear to students what happened and why it must never happen again?
I was in sixth grade, TX, when a teacher told a whole classroom that the civil war wasn't about slavery, but states rights. Looking back I am appalled that classroom authority was being used to indoctrinate kids with that as recently as 1993.
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@danyow @LeBonk @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke I know almost nothing about this, but didn't Germany do some good work on its education system to make it clear to students what happened and why it must never happen again?
I was in sixth grade, TX, when a teacher told a whole classroom that the civil war wasn't about slavery, but states rights. Looking back I am appalled that classroom authority was being used to indoctrinate kids with that as recently as 1993.
@independentpen
@danyow @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
yeah, this was more what I meant
that clear and unambiguous affect of "this happened, it is horrific and unacceptable, it's a mark of immense shame on our country, and it's our public duty to never ever forget it or let it happen again"
(though of course in practice that didn't stop them from letting it happen again, namely in south africa and palestine) -
@independentpen
@danyow @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
yeah, this was more what I meant
that clear and unambiguous affect of "this happened, it is horrific and unacceptable, it's a mark of immense shame on our country, and it's our public duty to never ever forget it or let it happen again"
(though of course in practice that didn't stop them from letting it happen again, namely in south africa and palestine)@LeBonk @danyow @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke right, my understanding is that in Germany, it is uncontroversial that the Holocaust and Hitler were horrible. It's not uncontroversial in the US that the Confederacy was horrible, that violence and voter suppression against Black people is happening and is wrong, etc. In fact people in some places are taught to celebrate or at least accept these things. Hate, and tolerance for hate, are two continuing political positions
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@LeBonk @danyow @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke right, my understanding is that in Germany, it is uncontroversial that the Holocaust and Hitler were horrible. It's not uncontroversial in the US that the Confederacy was horrible, that violence and voter suppression against Black people is happening and is wrong, etc. In fact people in some places are taught to celebrate or at least accept these things. Hate, and tolerance for hate, are two continuing political positions
@LeBonk @danyow @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke do you have insight on this @juergen_hubert ?
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@independentpen
@danyow @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
yeah, this was more what I meant
that clear and unambiguous affect of "this happened, it is horrific and unacceptable, it's a mark of immense shame on our country, and it's our public duty to never ever forget it or let it happen again"
(though of course in practice that didn't stop them from letting it happen again, namely in south africa and palestine)@independentpen
@danyow @Dtraslerwriting @rayocentric @D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke
@JuliusGoat has noted in the past how managing blame and assigning it to others is a core part of any supremacist project, so one of the most powerful ways to counter it is to accept blame and culpability in ourselves where applicable https://www.the-reframe.com/blame-management/
