Makes sense to me
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The sense is that Gandalf seemed too powerful and the director decided to humble him a bit to add tension.
And it was cool as fuck scene
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The answer is pretty simple:
Peter Jackson isn’t nearly as good at telling a consistent story as Tolkien was. This scene isn’t in the books.
I wouldn’t say that. I’d say he did a great job adapting text to a visual medium. In the text just having the sword light on fire in preparation works. When you see it played out, everyone is going to ask why he didn’t take a swing before leaving.
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Have to watch the Rankin Bass version for that!
THÖŪ FÖÖL NNNYA-AH-AH-AHHH
(I can hear this image)
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I wouldn’t say that. I’d say he did a great job adapting text to a visual medium. In the text just having the sword light on fire in preparation works. When you see it played out, everyone is going to ask why he didn’t take a swing before leaving.
This is exactly what the previous comment is saying. Jackson changed stuff for the movies to cater to mainstream movie audience expectations, at the cost of the worldbuilding and lore.
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This is exactly what the previous comment is saying. Jackson changed stuff for the movies to cater to mainstream movie audience expectations, at the cost of the worldbuilding and lore.
Maybe having a guy that’s totally invulnerable to the most powerful bad guys is actually not great world building in the first place.
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Maybe having a guy that’s totally invulnerable to the most powerful bad guys is actually not great world building in the first place.
He’s not at all invulnerable, in the book they were about to throw down and the Witch King was pretty confident about his chances. Also Gandalf literally gets killed by the Balrog. And beaten and imprisoned by Saruman.
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Maybe having a guy that’s totally invulnerable to the most powerful bad guys is actually not great world building in the first place.
HERESY!!! /s
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He’s not at all invulnerable, in the book they were about to throw down and the Witch King was pretty confident about his chances. Also Gandalf literally gets killed by the Balrog. And beaten and imprisoned by Saruman.
Yes pre-super Saiyan Gandalf is weaker.
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well mostly it’s explained by the fact that it didn’t happen.
"In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.
‘You cannot enter here,’ said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. ‘Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!’
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
‘Old fool!’ he said. ‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’ And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
Gandalf did not move."
and then the Rohirrim arrive and the Rider leaves.
Dude really just “Go home, boy” the ghost.
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Yes pre-super Saiyan Gandalf is weaker.
The Witch King was still gonna go him.
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He’s not at all invulnerable, in the book they were about to throw down and the Witch King was pretty confident about his chances. Also Gandalf literally gets killed by the Balrog. And beaten and imprisoned by Saruman.
Both happened before Gandalf got cleaned up though.
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He literally is not a man.
Meaning both he and the Balrog lose a lot of their power in physical form in the first place but yeah
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Balrog who is also a Maia*
Maiar is plural
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The Witch-King can fight a wizard for the same reason elves can fight and kill the greatest dragons and balrogs themselves. Binding creatures of spirit into physical form both weakens them and makes them vulnerable to other creatures built of both natures. If anything, as a wraith, he has an advantage in Tolkien rules.
That the Witch King is the equal of a balrog/Maia is not a stretch… Gandalf bring afraid of him even if he is a threat is the stretch, but I’d also argue that’s not being shown in the scene.
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The Witch King was still gonna go him.
Especially with prep time.
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Maybe having a guy that’s totally invulnerable to the most powerful bad guys is actually not great world building in the first place.
That’s the thing though, it’s not invulnerability, it’s, for lack of a better term, will realized as magic.
In Moria,
"…Gandalf stood firm. ‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’
This is an invocation - You cannot pass, I am a Maia of Eru, wielder of Narya, Morgoth is gone, Balrog, You cannot pass - and he does, indeed, not pass.
At Gondor, the actual fight starts earlier:
For yet another weapon, […] the Lord of the Dark Tower had: dread and despair. The Nazgul came again, […] More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, […] and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.
And so,
So it was that Gandalf took command […] Wherever he came men’s hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. […] And yet – when they had gone, the shadows closed on men again
And, finally,
Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!’” The Witch-King responds: “‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’” and lifts his sword to strike, and then: “Gandalf did not move. […] a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war […] And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. […] The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: […] he left the Gate and vanished.”
The night assault was driven by the ringwraith terror. Gandalf doesn’t confront the Witch King physically, he denies his terror, and denies him entry, and when he, unwisely, forces a confrontation, his whole spell folds like a cheap suit.
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The Witch-King can fight a wizard for the same reason elves can fight and kill the greatest dragons and balrogs themselves. Binding creatures of spirit into physical form both weakens them and makes them vulnerable to other creatures built of both natures. If anything, as a wraith, he has an advantage in Tolkien rules.
That the Witch King is the equal of a balrog/Maia is not a stretch… Gandalf bring afraid of him even if he is a threat is the stretch, but I’d also argue that’s not being shown in the scene.
Dragons weren’t spiritual creatures bound into physical form. They were something Morgoth basically selectively bred.
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That’s the thing though, it’s not invulnerability, it’s, for lack of a better term, will realized as magic.
In Moria,
"…Gandalf stood firm. ‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’
This is an invocation - You cannot pass, I am a Maia of Eru, wielder of Narya, Morgoth is gone, Balrog, You cannot pass - and he does, indeed, not pass.
At Gondor, the actual fight starts earlier:
For yet another weapon, […] the Lord of the Dark Tower had: dread and despair. The Nazgul came again, […] More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, […] and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.
And so,
So it was that Gandalf took command […] Wherever he came men’s hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. […] And yet – when they had gone, the shadows closed on men again
And, finally,
Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!’” The Witch-King responds: “‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’” and lifts his sword to strike, and then: “Gandalf did not move. […] a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war […] And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. […] The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: […] he left the Gate and vanished.”
The night assault was driven by the ringwraith terror. Gandalf doesn’t confront the Witch King physically, he denies his terror, and denies him entry, and when he, unwisely, forces a confrontation, his whole spell folds like a cheap suit.
good points but I have a nit to pick. I don’t think Flame of Anor refers to Narya, the Ring of Fire. keeping the 3 rings secret was imperative, so much so that Aragorn chides Frodo for mentioning that Galadriel has one, even though that’s a pretty obvious guess, and they were completely alone in the wilderness when it was said, and assaulting Lorien to get it would be difficult for Sauron’s forces. so for Gandalf to say directly to one of Sauron’s highest captains that one of the 3 is directly in front of him, carried by someone unexpected, as easy to take as defeating a single enemy (powerful as that enemy may be), just doesn’t make sense
Anor is the sun, so I think Gandalf is just saying “we both wield fire, but mine is bright like the sun, and thus superior to yours which is dark”
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LotR is running Pathfinder 2e under the hood, by the sounds of it, using Proficiency Without Level.
Could LotR scenes be used as examples to explain various mechanics from Pathfinder 2e?
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Dragons weren’t spiritual creatures bound into physical form. They were something Morgoth basically selectively bred.
Fair enough in the sense that their exact origin isn’t stated so I can’t point to a passage and call you a damn casual. I will note that breeding them doesn’t mean they didn’t start as some kind of ainur or whatever.
I’m curious how you think Ancalagon the Black is a pure product of animal husbandry though.
