Makes sense to me
-
The Witch King was still gonna go him.
Especially with prep time.
-
Maybe having a guy that’s totally invulnerable to the most powerful bad guys is actually not great world building in the first place.
That’s the thing though, it’s not invulnerability, it’s, for lack of a better term, will realized as magic.
In Moria,
"…Gandalf stood firm. ‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’
This is an invocation - You cannot pass, I am a Maia of Eru, wielder of Narya, Morgoth is gone, Balrog, You cannot pass - and he does, indeed, not pass.
At Gondor, the actual fight starts earlier:
For yet another weapon, […] the Lord of the Dark Tower had: dread and despair. The Nazgul came again, […] More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, […] and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.
And so,
So it was that Gandalf took command […] Wherever he came men’s hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. […] And yet – when they had gone, the shadows closed on men again
And, finally,
Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!’” The Witch-King responds: “‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’” and lifts his sword to strike, and then: “Gandalf did not move. […] a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war […] And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. […] The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: […] he left the Gate and vanished.”
The night assault was driven by the ringwraith terror. Gandalf doesn’t confront the Witch King physically, he denies his terror, and denies him entry, and when he, unwisely, forces a confrontation, his whole spell folds like a cheap suit.
-
The Witch-King can fight a wizard for the same reason elves can fight and kill the greatest dragons and balrogs themselves. Binding creatures of spirit into physical form both weakens them and makes them vulnerable to other creatures built of both natures. If anything, as a wraith, he has an advantage in Tolkien rules.
That the Witch King is the equal of a balrog/Maia is not a stretch… Gandalf bring afraid of him even if he is a threat is the stretch, but I’d also argue that’s not being shown in the scene.
Dragons weren’t spiritual creatures bound into physical form. They were something Morgoth basically selectively bred.
-
That’s the thing though, it’s not invulnerability, it’s, for lack of a better term, will realized as magic.
In Moria,
"…Gandalf stood firm. ‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’
This is an invocation - You cannot pass, I am a Maia of Eru, wielder of Narya, Morgoth is gone, Balrog, You cannot pass - and he does, indeed, not pass.
At Gondor, the actual fight starts earlier:
For yet another weapon, […] the Lord of the Dark Tower had: dread and despair. The Nazgul came again, […] More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, […] and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.
And so,
So it was that Gandalf took command […] Wherever he came men’s hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. […] And yet – when they had gone, the shadows closed on men again
And, finally,
Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!’” The Witch-King responds: “‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’” and lifts his sword to strike, and then: “Gandalf did not move. […] a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war […] And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. […] The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: […] he left the Gate and vanished.”
The night assault was driven by the ringwraith terror. Gandalf doesn’t confront the Witch King physically, he denies his terror, and denies him entry, and when he, unwisely, forces a confrontation, his whole spell folds like a cheap suit.
good points but I have a nit to pick. I don’t think Flame of Anor refers to Narya, the Ring of Fire. keeping the 3 rings secret was imperative, so much so that Aragorn chides Frodo for mentioning that Galadriel has one, even though that’s a pretty obvious guess, and they were completely alone in the wilderness when it was said, and assaulting Lorien to get it would be difficult for Sauron’s forces. so for Gandalf to say directly to one of Sauron’s highest captains that one of the 3 is directly in front of him, carried by someone unexpected, as easy to take as defeating a single enemy (powerful as that enemy may be), just doesn’t make sense
Anor is the sun, so I think Gandalf is just saying “we both wield fire, but mine is bright like the sun, and thus superior to yours which is dark”
-
LotR is running Pathfinder 2e under the hood, by the sounds of it, using Proficiency Without Level.
Could LotR scenes be used as examples to explain various mechanics from Pathfinder 2e?
-
Dragons weren’t spiritual creatures bound into physical form. They were something Morgoth basically selectively bred.
Fair enough in the sense that their exact origin isn’t stated so I can’t point to a passage and call you a damn casual. I will note that breeding them doesn’t mean they didn’t start as some kind of ainur or whatever.
I’m curious how you think Ancalagon the Black is a pure product of animal husbandry though.
-
Fair enough in the sense that their exact origin isn’t stated so I can’t point to a passage and call you a damn casual. I will note that breeding them doesn’t mean they didn’t start as some kind of ainur or whatever.
I’m curious how you think Ancalagon the Black is a pure product of animal husbandry though.
It’s the same kind of deal as with the orcs. Morgoth couldn’t create anything, but he could twist existing creations into exciting new forms.
-
It’s the same kind of deal as with the orcs. Morgoth couldn’t create anything, but he could twist existing creations into exciting new forms.
And he starts with creatures of power… Which in Tolkien are always creatures of spirit, especially in the First Age.
-
And he starts with creatures of power… Which in Tolkien are always creatures of spirit, especially in the First Age.
Well, no, he created orcs before he did dragons, and there was definitely nothing spiritual about the orcs.
-
good points but I have a nit to pick. I don’t think Flame of Anor refers to Narya, the Ring of Fire. keeping the 3 rings secret was imperative, so much so that Aragorn chides Frodo for mentioning that Galadriel has one, even though that’s a pretty obvious guess, and they were completely alone in the wilderness when it was said, and assaulting Lorien to get it would be difficult for Sauron’s forces. so for Gandalf to say directly to one of Sauron’s highest captains that one of the 3 is directly in front of him, carried by someone unexpected, as easy to take as defeating a single enemy (powerful as that enemy may be), just doesn’t make sense
Anor is the sun, so I think Gandalf is just saying “we both wield fire, but mine is bright like the sun, and thus superior to yours which is dark”
Good point, but, was Durin’s Bane working for Sauron? I never got the impression Sauron had Balrogs in service, much less that one in particular.
