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  3. How long does it take to understand a game? You don't owe it 100 hours.

How long does it take to understand a game? You don't owe it 100 hours.

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  • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

    How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

    There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

    I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

    Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

    • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
    • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
    • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
    • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
    • Project Warlock - 4 hours

    That’s a huge range. Why?

    Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

    But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

    I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

    When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

    What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

    Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

    I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

    And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

    Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

    Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

    Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

    But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

    If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

    After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

    Z This user is from outside of this forum
    Z This user is from outside of this forum
    zedotelhado@lemmy.world
    wrote on last edited by
    #8

    The word you are looking for is elitism. Clearly, people who think you have to have x amount of time on anything to have an opinion belong to an elite that clearly do not understand no one can enjoy the same media the same exact way as they do. I’ve had so many games that I get, start, 2 minutes in I just do not want to give it more time, return it (case in point: Helldiver’s 2 immediately after the tutorial I just realized was not for me). If I wanted to give a negative opinion I would be more than entitled to it. I had a game, didn’t like it, returned it. That’s it

    1 Reply Last reply
    1
    • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

      How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

      There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

      I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

      Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

      • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
      • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
      • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
      • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
      • Project Warlock - 4 hours

      That’s a huge range. Why?

      Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

      But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

      I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

      When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

      What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

      Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

      I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

      And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

      Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

      Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

      Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

      But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

      If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

      After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

      O This user is from outside of this forum
      O This user is from outside of this forum
      oka@sopuli.xyz
      wrote on last edited by
      #9

      Each game is different, but i can decide if i will like a game within 30 minutes most of the time. A lot of the time, its within the first 10 minutes. Occasionally, the developers spent time polishing the first 30 mins, then you approach the 1 hour mark and things start going to shit.

      A lot of us have played enough games that every sandbox feels the same, every first person shooter feels the same, every puzzle game feels the same (or whatever your favorite genre is, you know the pattern that they all have) so instead of “is this original game good” our focus is on “how is this game different or better that what I’ve already played”

      In addition, you can almost always see what a game is going to look like 15-20 hours in within the first 15 minutes. If its an open world survival craft, the end game is a mega base. If its an RPG, the end game is a demi-god character. If its a story based game, the end game is finishing the story and maybe getting 100% collectibles and such. For me, I’d rather skip the time investment and try new experiences.

      1 Reply Last reply
      1
      • S sincerityiscool@lemmy.ca

        Sometimes you can spot a critical design decision that experience with the genre can tell you right off the bat it won’t be for you.

        Sometimes you have to play through it to realize it doesn’t meet expectations. A lot of the games I play are deep sandboxes that if I like I’ll sink hundreds of hours into, and often come with a very steep learning period. With those the problems can be subtle and take a depth of experience to understand. I have 108 hours in Civ 5 because that’s how long it took me to realize I didn’t like it at all, despite previously being a fan of the series. There are other games I’ve played for longer and wouldn’t recommend if asked because having developed a nuanced understanding of the systems I see how some design decisions undermine the fantasy the game is trying to sell. Sure I enjoyed it well enough at the time, but for someone who likes to engage with depth this sort of perspective can be appreciated in a review so you know the time is better spent elsewhere.

        ChristianC This user is from outside of this forum
        ChristianC This user is from outside of this forum
        Christian
        wrote on last edited by christian@lemmy.ml
        #10

        Yeah, I think someone deciding they don’t want to take a review seriously if it’s by someone who gave up on it quickly is fair. Especially if you’re poor and paying for games, you can’t get something new every day so you’d often prefer something that takes a lot of time to fully understand and appreciate, even if that comes at the expense of being a slog for the early hours.

        I also imagine that declaring a specific review invalid for this reason will more often than not just be sour grapes over someone trashing a game they love. It’s still not justified, but to some degree I get it. Maybe I’m visiting the wrong crowds but I think painting all of this as universally-applied mindless elitism, rather than as someone’s knee-jerk reaction to criticism for their specific passion, is itself overly dismissive. You can still call that out without presenting it as a caricature.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

          How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

          There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

          I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

          Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

          • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
          • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
          • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
          • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
          • Project Warlock - 4 hours

          That’s a huge range. Why?

          Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

          But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

          I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

          When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

          What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

          Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

          I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

          And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

          Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

          Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

          Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

          But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

          If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

          After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

          R This user is from outside of this forum
          R This user is from outside of this forum
          ryathal@sh.itjust.works
          wrote on last edited by
          #11

          There’s a really weird and large contingent of gamers that believe you can’t criticize or have a valid opinion on a game unless you complete the game.

          O 1 Reply Last reply
          3
          • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

            How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

            There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

            I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

            Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

            • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
            • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
            • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
            • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
            • Project Warlock - 4 hours

            That’s a huge range. Why?

            Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

            But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

            I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

            When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

            What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

            Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

            I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

            And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

            Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

            Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

            Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

            But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

            If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

            After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

            W This user is from outside of this forum
            W This user is from outside of this forum
            who
            wrote on last edited by who@feddit.org
            #12

            I agree with much of what you wrote, and I’m glad you spoke up about it. One small nit to pick, though:

            Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense

            The 8-bit microcomputers of that time, especially those like the Commodore 64, were personal computers in every sense. Some of them predated the IBM PC.

            A 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • W who

              I agree with much of what you wrote, and I’m glad you spoke up about it. One small nit to pick, though:

              Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense

              The 8-bit microcomputers of that time, especially those like the Commodore 64, were personal computers in every sense. Some of them predated the IBM PC.

              A This user is from outside of this forum
              A This user is from outside of this forum
              atomicpoet@lemmy.world
              wrote on last edited by atomicpoet@lemmy.world
              #13

              There’s a reason I put “PC” in quotes.

              Yes, the C64 was—and is—a personal computer. But when people often say “PC”, what they mean are DOS and Windows machines.

              W 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

                There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

                I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

                Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

                • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
                • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
                • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
                • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
                • Project Warlock - 4 hours

                That’s a huge range. Why?

                Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

                But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

                I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

                When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

                What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

                Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

                I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

                And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

                Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

                Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

                Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

                But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

                If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

                After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

                J This user is from outside of this forum
                J This user is from outside of this forum
                je_skirata@lemmy.today
                wrote on last edited by
                #14

                Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss.

                This is so true. Mysteries of the Sith is one of my favorite Star Wars PC games, but the first time I played it I was so frustrated about the level design. MoTS is not fun to play the first time. But after you have a better sense of what to do, it’s such a great game, very impressive for its time.

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                  How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

                  There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

                  I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

                  Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

                  • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
                  • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
                  • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
                  • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
                  • Project Warlock - 4 hours

                  That’s a huge range. Why?

                  Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

                  But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

                  I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

                  When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

                  What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

                  Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

                  I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

                  And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

                  Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

                  Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

                  Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

                  But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

                  If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

                  After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

                  R This user is from outside of this forum
                  R This user is from outside of this forum
                  Rentlar
                  wrote on last edited by rentlar@lemmy.ca
                  #15

                  I don’t mind if people give their opinion no matter whether they have played 5 minutes before shutting it off, 1000 hours or not played it all.

                  But I do take issue with anyone acting like an expert, while making claims that shows their inexperience with a game or genre. One of the most egregious example is with people like Elon Musk, but you’ll see it with IGN reviewers sometimes, or people on forums acting like hotshots. It’s like a student who just passed Electronics 101 or Economics 101 acting like they know it all because of the four new formulas they learned. Anyone with more knowledge can see through it transparently, so just be honest with your experience in a preface before stating your opinion, then there is no problem.

                  A 1 Reply Last reply
                  4
                  • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                    There’s a reason I put “PC” in quotes.

                    Yes, the C64 was—and is—a personal computer. But when people often say “PC”, what they mean are DOS and Windows machines.

                    W This user is from outside of this forum
                    W This user is from outside of this forum
                    who
                    wrote on last edited by who@feddit.org
                    #16

                    Ah, gotcha. I think I would have phrased that as IBM PC or PC-compatible, or maybe just removed the “in the strictest sense” qualification, to avoid confusion. Because those machines were indeed PCs in the strictest sense. The phrase and concept both existed well before the IBM PC was invented.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • R Rentlar

                      I don’t mind if people give their opinion no matter whether they have played 5 minutes before shutting it off, 1000 hours or not played it all.

                      But I do take issue with anyone acting like an expert, while making claims that shows their inexperience with a game or genre. One of the most egregious example is with people like Elon Musk, but you’ll see it with IGN reviewers sometimes, or people on forums acting like hotshots. It’s like a student who just passed Electronics 101 or Economics 101 acting like they know it all because of the four new formulas they learned. Anyone with more knowledge can see through it transparently, so just be honest with your experience in a preface before stating your opinion, then there is no problem.

                      A This user is from outside of this forum
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                      atomicpoet@lemmy.world
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #17

                      Yeah, but I think there’s a big difference between saying “I understand what this game is” and “I’m a total badass”.

                      Personally, I’ve played two hours of Path of Exile. By no means am I great. But have I played enough of it to know that I enjoy it?

                      Yeah, it’s fun. And as far as free-to-play games are concerned, it’s awesome.

                      Thing is, though, I already own many similar games. So I’m not so compelled to continue with Path of Exile—not because it’s bad but because those other games don’t have in-app purchases.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      1
                      • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                        How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

                        There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

                        I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

                        Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

                        • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
                        • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
                        • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
                        • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
                        • Project Warlock - 4 hours

                        That’s a huge range. Why?

                        Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

                        But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

                        I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

                        When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

                        What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

                        Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

                        I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

                        And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

                        Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

                        Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

                        Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

                        But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

                        If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

                        After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

                        B This user is from outside of this forum
                        B This user is from outside of this forum
                        bronzebeard@lemm.ee
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #18

                        20 minutes is enough to get an idea if a game is going to be fun or not.

                        L 1 Reply Last reply
                        3
                        • R ryathal@sh.itjust.works

                          There’s a really weird and large contingent of gamers that believe you can’t criticize or have a valid opinion on a game unless you complete the game.

                          O This user is from outside of this forum
                          O This user is from outside of this forum
                          overload@sopuli.xyz
                          wrote on last edited by overload@sopuli.xyz
                          #19

                          I don’t know man. I’ve dropped off Red Dead redemption 2 quite a few times now, and have only made it up to maybe chapter 2 each time before I get bored of the slow pace of movement, looting and boring shooting. I don’t think I have a very valid opinion of the game because I haven’t seen the so-called amazing story yet, so I don’t hold a strong opinion about it, and don’t think I’m entitled to over people who have experienced the whole thing.

                          A 1 Reply Last reply
                          2
                          • O overload@sopuli.xyz

                            I don’t know man. I’ve dropped off Red Dead redemption 2 quite a few times now, and have only made it up to maybe chapter 2 each time before I get bored of the slow pace of movement, looting and boring shooting. I don’t think I have a very valid opinion of the game because I haven’t seen the so-called amazing story yet, so I don’t hold a strong opinion about it, and don’t think I’m entitled to over people who have experienced the whole thing.

                            A This user is from outside of this forum
                            A This user is from outside of this forum
                            atomicpoet@lemmy.world
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #20

                            But you know that you’re bored.

                            That doesn’t mean you’re an expert. It does mean that there’s something about that game that keeps you from playing further.

                            O 1 Reply Last reply
                            2
                            • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                              How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

                              There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

                              I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

                              Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

                              • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
                              • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
                              • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
                              • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
                              • Project Warlock - 4 hours

                              That’s a huge range. Why?

                              Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

                              But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

                              I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

                              When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

                              What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

                              Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

                              I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

                              And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

                              Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

                              Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

                              Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

                              But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

                              If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

                              After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

                              Jerkface (any/all)J This user is from outside of this forum
                              Jerkface (any/all)J This user is from outside of this forum
                              Jerkface (any/all)
                              wrote on last edited by jerkface@lemmy.ca
                              #21

                              Good games allow thousands, tens of thousands, limitless investment in skills and mechanics. They are simple and don’t depend on plot or lore. That other stuff? That isn’t “game.” It’s literature.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              2
                              • B bronzebeard@lemm.ee

                                20 minutes is enough to get an idea if a game is going to be fun or not.

                                L This user is from outside of this forum
                                L This user is from outside of this forum
                                ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #22

                                You can’t just write off Skyrim like that, unless of course you’re forced to play it unmodded.

                                B 1 Reply Last reply
                                2
                                • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                                  How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

                                  There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

                                  I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

                                  Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

                                  • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
                                  • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
                                  • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
                                  • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
                                  • Project Warlock - 4 hours

                                  That’s a huge range. Why?

                                  Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

                                  But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

                                  I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

                                  When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

                                  What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

                                  Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

                                  I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

                                  And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

                                  Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

                                  Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

                                  Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

                                  But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

                                  If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

                                  After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

                                  nichtelias@sh.itjust.worksN This user is from outside of this forum
                                  nichtelias@sh.itjust.worksN This user is from outside of this forum
                                  nichtelias@sh.itjust.works
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #23

                                  The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish.

                                  Me, looking at my friend’s and my current Factorio: Space Age save that’s half finished at ~100 hours: Am I playing an RPG?

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  2
                                  • L ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml

                                    You can’t just write off Skyrim like that, unless of course you’re forced to play it unmodded.

                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    bronzebeard@lemm.ee
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #24

                                    …at what point did I write off Skyrim?

                                    I L 2 Replies Last reply
                                    0
                                    • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                                      How long should you play a game before you truly understand it?

                                      There’s a certain contingent of PC gamers who believe you need to spend hundreds of hours with a title before you’re allowed to form an opinion. Especially in online spaces, it’s common to see someone discredited for “only” playing 10 hours—as if they just sniffed the box and walked away.

                                      I get it… kind of. If we’re talking about something massive and layered like Skyrim, then sure. One playthrough can take weeks out of your life. But is that the standard?

                                      Take a glance at GOG, which often lists average completion times. Here’s a small sample:

                                      • Kingdom Come: Deliverance - 41.5 hours
                                      • Deus Ex - 22.5 hours
                                      • Frostpunk - 10.5 hours
                                      • The Invincible - 6.5 hours
                                      • Project Warlock - 4 hours

                                      That’s a huge range. Why?

                                      Mostly genre. The more RPG-like a game is, the longer it will take to finish. But the more arcade-y a game is, the tighter the runtime.

                                      But there’s this myth—especially among purists—that a “real” PC game shouldn’t feel arcade-y. That PC games are meant to be vast, deep, and long.

                                      I’ve been a PC gamer for decades. That idea’s nonsense.

                                      When I had a physical Commodore 64, I could beat Uridium in under 20 minutes. Sure, the C64 is technically an 8-bit micro—not a “PC” in the strictest sense—but I also played Dangerous Dave on DOS. That took about 30 minutes.

                                      What about much more modern games? A few months ago, I played Virginia (2016). I was done in one sitting. It took me an hour and a half.

                                      Which brings us back to the real question: what does it mean to “understand” a game? Is it the same as completing it?

                                      I don’t think so. Plenty of games aren’t even meant to be completed. Take puzzle games. Tetris, for instance, never ends—just speeds up until you die. That’s still a PC game, by the way. It launched on DOS before it ever hit arcades or home consoles.

                                      And even for games that do have an ending, completion doesn’t necessarily equal comprehension. What’s the point of dragging yourself through 30 hours of crap just to say you finished it? I’ve done that with bad games—and trust me, the only thing I gained was regret. Pongo, for example. I played that mess to the bitter end. I don’t understand it any better than I did five minutes in. I just feel cheated out of my time.

                                      Most games tell you what they’re about in the first five minutes. If it’s unresponsive, broken, or filled with jank right out of the gate, that’s usually your cue to uninstall. And I’m not just talking about asset flips.

                                      Elder Scrolls: Arena stinks. It’s got one of the worst control schemes I’ve ever witnessed. And even by the standards of 1995, it is an ugly game. No, I haven’t finished Arena, nor do I intend to—I have suffered enough. I gave it a solid 30 minutes—everyone told me it was a great—but some games are not worth it.

                                      Granted, sometimes there are games that massively improve after the first five minutes. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of this. Initially, trying to figure out what to do is such a chore. But afterwards, it’s pure bliss. And for this reason, I feel most negative reviews on Steam are wrong.

                                      But Mysteries of the Sith is an exception—not the rule. Most of the time, if you like a game within five minutes of play, you’ll probably like it 50 hours afterwards.

                                      If it’s bad at the start, it rarely gets better.

 So no—hundreds of hours aren’t necessary to “get” a game. You don’t owe your time to any title. Five minutes can be enough. And if that five minutes fills you with joy, then the game has already done its job.

                                      After all, isn’t the point to have fun?

                                      I This user is from outside of this forum
                                      I This user is from outside of this forum
                                      iegod@lemm.ee
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #25

                                      It’s all subjective and there are no wrong answers but gatekeeping is definitely silly. Let people prefer what they want.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      1
                                      • B bronzebeard@lemm.ee

                                        …at what point did I write off Skyrim?

                                        I This user is from outside of this forum
                                        I This user is from outside of this forum
                                        iegod@lemm.ee
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #26

                                        Bruh that was a joke.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        1
                                        • A atomicpoet@lemmy.world

                                          But you know that you’re bored.

                                          That doesn’t mean you’re an expert. It does mean that there’s something about that game that keeps you from playing further.

                                          O This user is from outside of this forum
                                          O This user is from outside of this forum
                                          overload@sopuli.xyz
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #27

                                          That’s true, I certainly hold the valid opinion of my reasons for dropping the game.

                                          I also didn’t find the story gripping enough to keep going, but it would be another thing for me to go online and start expressing opinions about the slow paced, seemingly by the numbers, story that I saw in my 8 hours with the game (I’m sure it must get better by everyone’s praising it)

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