To be fair, if 8% exits the labour market that would have a pretty severe economic effect, no?

Controlled rent is better than uncontrolled rent, but it suffers from the same problems as minimum wage. And why should landlords even exist? I’m not convinced private rentals should be legal at all. If you’re not using a property for personal use or a place of business, why shouldn’t it be seized and auctioned or rented publicly?

Who said anything about ‘fuck you I got mine?’

First of all Canada already has a TON of social supports for anyone who is in need. We have Employment Insurance if you lose your job. We have Old Age Security and Canada Pension Plan for seniors. We have Child Tax Credits for parents and especially single parents. We have the GST credit to give back taxes to low income earners. We have the Canada Workers Benefit. We have the Canada Disability Benefit. We have the Assured Income for Severely Handicapped. We have disability pensions. We have Universal Pharmacare for prescription drugs. We have housing benefits/social housing programs. We have the Canadian Dental Benefit. We have student aid. There are free food banks in every city. And there are emergency funds available for things like rent/damage deposits on an emergency basis from every province through various community agencies, charities, and non-profit organizations.

So WHY do we need UBI on top of all that? If you need help in Canada, you CAN find it. Its already here.

Source: I founded a charity for street kids in one of our major cities thats been operating for 33 years. There is a TON of support out there. The fact is that a LOT of the people on the street know how to use and abuse the system and they dont WANT to get out of it because its what they grew up in and what they are accustomed to. I speak from years of experience.

You’re looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.

Agreed and let me say, I’m probably privileged enough to be seriously affected by tax increases if UBI was instituted. However, as a person with average empathy, do you think I’d prefer being slightly less privileged, or walking around and seeing everyone miserable and stressed the hell out all the time? I’m always amazed that there is any difference of opinion, especially when most Republicans would stand to gain at the expense of people like me.

Show your work, please. I’m pretty sure it’s closer to 25-30%.

Edit: confirmed. I did the math. It’s closer to 35% for most people. Including income tax, sales tax, and property tax.

You wouldn’t get UBI “on top of all that”.

You’d get it instead of all that.

Assuming this was supposed to reply to my response (you’re just responding directly to the main post FYI).

Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes

I haven’t ever heard a number this big. Where did you get this from, and how does it compare to other countries?

I don’t disagree - we’re taxed more than the US, but that comes with things like single-payer healthcare and higher regulatory enforcement. GST, for example, isn’t something collected in the US meaning they only have the effective PST component of our sales tax, which varies widely by municipality to municipality, but is quite a bit less.

I imagine it would improve wages as employers would need to properly incentivise people to return to those jobs. Probably why UBI hasn’t made it past a trial yet.

This is an untrue statistic often trotted out by the Conservative Frasier Institute. Canadians think we’re taxed far more than we are, because public opinion has been manipulated to believe so. Average Canadian pays about one third of income to taxes - creeping up as you move up taxes brackets

Many middle class Canadian pay 25% or more just in income tax. Then you have to add sales taxes, property taxes, and the rest.

I would say he is about right.

The top income tax bracket is over 50%. If you are very high income, you can pay well over 30% just in income tax (overall).

For anybody that does not understand progressive income tax brackets, a top rate of 50% does not mean you pay 50% on all income. You pay nothing to a certain point, pay a lower percentage up to a certain level, and then it goes up on what you make beyond that level. On the 30,000th dollar you make, you might pay 25 cents tax. On the 200,000th dollar, you might pay 53 cents. On your first dollar, you pay nothing.

Socialists refuse to pay taxes? Don’t you mean rich people?

I don’t get your math. Here in BC my property tax is about $1500 on a 2 bedroom condo. Maybe 1-2% of my income. With deductions my tax is about 13% since my wife doesn’t earn a huge amount but even if single it might be 20%, there is no health insurance fee as its baked into taxes. We aren’t paying PST on food. So your claim is my other 15-20% tax means I’m paying 30% tax on everything else I buy?

Thankfully BC doesnt do sales tax on food (even at a restaurant) and property tax is super cheap here. Ours is about $1500 on a 600k place. My tax rate is about 22-26% but with deductions it would be more like 20%, and spouse earns less and other deductions so 13% owing. But even at 20% there is no way another 30% is additional tax

Choosing the right level of income is the key for UBI to work, it has to be enough to live and survive but not so much that a recipient can enjoy luxury. Most people like to contribute to society, being is social is how humans are so dominant as a species.

Most people will contribute to the economy if they can, because it supports ambition, better lifestyle but it doesn’t put pressure to worry about where today’s food is going to be, people take more risks, be more entrepreneurial, explore more curiosity, explore new ideas, people spend time on acquiring more useful skills.

A mentally healthy mind is not entirely lazy. Being lazy perpetually reflects a deeper problem that is psychological to some degree such as having no hope or not being able to Imagine a happy future, or feeling helpless. Mentally healthy people want to contribute to society.

Economy as a whole will expand, which will pay in turn for UBI. First few years of UBI might be heavier on tax payers of the old system, but in long term UBI will lead to better economy. Question is not who is going to pay for it, question is can people agree to pay more out of their own pocket now for a better future for everyone? OR are we doomed as a species by exploiting our own kind?

I doubt this is correct. The argument against universal healthcare was similar and provably, historically wrong.

As UBI is not a lot per person and only goes to very low income people, the burden on the entire country is not great. And it turns out that impoverished people are a burden on the country. Alleviating that burden offsets the costs.

Especially with that single-payer healthcare we have. The unit rates for things like Dr. hours or beds in hospitals are enormous. If we can cut down on the number of visits required because people have somewhere safe to live and aren’t getting injured/sick living on the street, we could save huge amounts of money. Add onto that the cost of policing and/or incarcerating them, plus the economic benefit of having downtown areas feel safer for people, thus encouraging more people to live/work/spend time in those areas.

Problem is the uber wealthy aren’t actually PAID that much. They’re given stock options or other, non-liquid cash, which isn’t taxed as income. It also doesn’t get taxed until you withdraw it (see the capital gains “scare” that the media hyped up over the recent changes to tax code). Had to dig a bit to find it, but Quebec provides their people with >1mil income per year, which is about 7,000, or 0.08%. Extrapolated to Canada-wide (which I’d argue is not accurate and way too high) gives us 27,000. That’s not a lot of people to try and draw any major funds from. Especially at a ramping rate of return like proposed.

Very rich (bezos, Westons, etc) then draw it out as needed, or use it as collateral against loans at lower interest rates than their return on investments, driving things like private equity, corporate landlords, etc. This then cycles, increasing their paper wealth while not actually having a lot of income to tax easily.

We should de-incentivize wealth hoarding

I agree. The problem is how to do that without penalizing the bottom end, overcomplicating tax laws further, and/or creating some other loophole for the rich to jump through. What counts into your wealth hording? Property? Investments? Are unrealized gains (ie stocks worth a ton but not yet sold to gain actual money) counted against them? What about property - if the market skyrockets, are people forced to sell their homes?

What about things like the wealthy transferring their extra wealth to children or spouses? How does that play into it? Its messy once you get into the details of it, and those are the key points that would actually make a difference.

I don’t wish to interrupt a Canadian discussion, but the US is similar - ~20% state and federal taxes, property tax, medical coverage, etc. are all going to be about 30% income, if not more, depending on location. So not unreasonable at face value without going too deep into the particulars of each.

We shouldn’t cap income, but total wealth. That would include stocks, assets, etc.

People should be free to make money, and if making was balanced, then taxes would apply to everyone fairly.

To reiterate, nobody should be worth a trillion, or even a billion.

What about property - if the market skyrockets, are people forced to sell their homes?

The cap wouldn’t be so low that this would become an issue. Unless you’ve hoarded multiple homes worth tens of millions each… a cap would discourage that type of hoarding, too.

What about things like the wealthy transferring their extra wealth to children or spouses? How does that play into it?

Family wealth would be capped, just as we are often taxed or given social assistance for total family income/assets.

If wealth was capped, then even if a family spread around the wealth, it wouldn’t be hoarding to the tune of hundreds of billions.

Really, we could have solutions to every scenario. But the fact is, our current system isn’t working at all. It’s perhaps the worst system you could dream up, unless you were among the top wealth hoarders in the world.

But a fair and balanced system would still have “rich” people, they just won’t be rich enough to influence elections, control social media, or monopolize any industrial sector.