I haven’t seen any numbers either for or against it, so I can’t say anything about viability. If anyone knows enough to run the numbers, I’d like to see it. The problem with the calculations you show above is that you assume the value of money doesn’t change when the world around it changes, but it does. Especially so if you make a large change like implementing UBI. We need to think about this in terms of resources. The question you should be asking is whether there’s enough food / housing / labour within the country to fulfill everyone’s basic needs.

Once again, misleading to the point of being intentional. A implies B is not the same as B implies A. Having UBI be guaranteed regardless of income is not the same as income being guaranteed regardless of UBI. So why do you keep insisting that it must? At this point I have to assume intent rather than ignorance.

I haven’t seen any numbers either for or against it, so I can’t say anything about viability. If anyone knows enough to run the numbers, I’d like to see it. The problem with the calculations you show above is that you assume the value of money doesn’t change when the world around it changes, but it does.

Especially so if you make a large change like implementing UBI. We need to think about this in terms of resources.

My calculations don’t assume anything. I literally used age statistics, the Ontario framework for the payout, and net revenue of the Federal Government to demonstrate the cost of UBI. Find me more data, I will give you better calculations.

Feel free to provide data on your claim about this massive shift you assume I didn’t account for. Preferably which countries have instituted UBI and demonstrated this outcome.

The question you should be asking is whether there’s enough food / housing / labour within the country to fulfill everyone’s basic needs.

There is more than enough food from waste alone to feed every single person on the planet, let alone a small country. There is enough housing if we factor in how many empty units, houses, and the like exist because of high cost; What we don’t have we have ways of providing. There is enough labour to go around when Citizens and residents take the available jobs. The reason why we need TFW’s and things of that nature is because citizens and residents refuse to work on farms even though that is constant seasonal work. The labour is there, the willingness doesn’t seem to be.

I don’t need to ask a question like that, because it has nothing to do with my point that the cost of UBI is excessive, unmanageable, and there are better ways to do things. We already have social safety nets that need improving for people in need. Every single person doesn’t need help, but the social services required by others do.

Idk, I feel like landlords would just jack prices by whatever the ubi payments are. Ubi is a good idea for sure, but it’s only a piece.

Cheated, stolen it, and had other people break their bodies to “earn” it.

We’re about to see trillionaires in our lifetime, which is obscene. Cap wealth so the hoarding can stop.

I disagree with the extreme measure, posit that a less extreme measure would work just as well or better, and await any kind of data and proper analysis to support your point of view like I have already done.

I will not continue the conversation otherwise, so take care of yourself if you choose to respond differently.

Controlled rent would also be fantastic and has worked in economically diffuclt times like COVID. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work again during the recession we are spiralling towards.

Until it is peer reviewed and points out the glaring errors, which will promptly be ignored.

To be fair, if 8% exits the labour market that would have a pretty severe economic effect, no?

Controlled rent is better than uncontrolled rent, but it suffers from the same problems as minimum wage. And why should landlords even exist? I’m not convinced private rentals should be legal at all. If you’re not using a property for personal use or a place of business, why shouldn’t it be seized and auctioned or rented publicly?

Who said anything about ‘fuck you I got mine?’

First of all Canada already has a TON of social supports for anyone who is in need. We have Employment Insurance if you lose your job. We have Old Age Security and Canada Pension Plan for seniors. We have Child Tax Credits for parents and especially single parents. We have the GST credit to give back taxes to low income earners. We have the Canada Workers Benefit. We have the Canada Disability Benefit. We have the Assured Income for Severely Handicapped. We have disability pensions. We have Universal Pharmacare for prescription drugs. We have housing benefits/social housing programs. We have the Canadian Dental Benefit. We have student aid. There are free food banks in every city. And there are emergency funds available for things like rent/damage deposits on an emergency basis from every province through various community agencies, charities, and non-profit organizations.

So WHY do we need UBI on top of all that? If you need help in Canada, you CAN find it. Its already here.

Source: I founded a charity for street kids in one of our major cities thats been operating for 33 years. There is a TON of support out there. The fact is that a LOT of the people on the street know how to use and abuse the system and they dont WANT to get out of it because its what they grew up in and what they are accustomed to. I speak from years of experience.

You’re looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.

Agreed and let me say, I’m probably privileged enough to be seriously affected by tax increases if UBI was instituted. However, as a person with average empathy, do you think I’d prefer being slightly less privileged, or walking around and seeing everyone miserable and stressed the hell out all the time? I’m always amazed that there is any difference of opinion, especially when most Republicans would stand to gain at the expense of people like me.

Show your work, please. I’m pretty sure it’s closer to 25-30%.

Edit: confirmed. I did the math. It’s closer to 35% for most people. Including income tax, sales tax, and property tax.

You wouldn’t get UBI “on top of all that”.

You’d get it instead of all that.

Assuming this was supposed to reply to my response (you’re just responding directly to the main post FYI).

Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes

I haven’t ever heard a number this big. Where did you get this from, and how does it compare to other countries?

I don’t disagree - we’re taxed more than the US, but that comes with things like single-payer healthcare and higher regulatory enforcement. GST, for example, isn’t something collected in the US meaning they only have the effective PST component of our sales tax, which varies widely by municipality to municipality, but is quite a bit less.

I imagine it would improve wages as employers would need to properly incentivise people to return to those jobs. Probably why UBI hasn’t made it past a trial yet.

This is an untrue statistic often trotted out by the Conservative Frasier Institute. Canadians think we’re taxed far more than we are, because public opinion has been manipulated to believe so. Average Canadian pays about one third of income to taxes - creeping up as you move up taxes brackets

Many middle class Canadian pay 25% or more just in income tax. Then you have to add sales taxes, property taxes, and the rest.

I would say he is about right.

The top income tax bracket is over 50%. If you are very high income, you can pay well over 30% just in income tax (overall).

For anybody that does not understand progressive income tax brackets, a top rate of 50% does not mean you pay 50% on all income. You pay nothing to a certain point, pay a lower percentage up to a certain level, and then it goes up on what you make beyond that level. On the 30,000th dollar you make, you might pay 25 cents tax. On the 200,000th dollar, you might pay 53 cents. On your first dollar, you pay nothing.

Socialists refuse to pay taxes? Don’t you mean rich people?