Pretty sure this is happening in my game
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Ah man did this just spoil The Good Place for me?
No they both just have sinister laughing face. This is actually in response to a clown doing a hijink
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I’ve seen season 1, but it was a long time ago.
Yes, but what about elevensieth times?
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Having the traitor in the party, has a binary result, it’es either one of the best campaign you’ll play, or a horror story, no middle ground
It’s certainly one way to get the table to listen to you when you tell them for the last goddamn time, you’re not DMing the next campaign…
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… Because it’s you, isn’t it.
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Ah man did this just spoil The Good Place for me?
The Good Place is unspoilable, I enjoyed it much more when I knew some of the plot points beforehand.
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This happened in my game. I spoke with the player about having his character swapped with another version of him from an alternate universe, and he was down for it. Then it happened in game. None of the players realized it. This went on for years (literal real time years) before he betrayed them. It was delicious.
Of course literal time years. It would be about a decade before an actual ingame year has passed.
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I’ve seen season 1, but it was a long time ago.
I will say it like this: That is a frame from the show. At some point, Michael and Eleanor stand next to each other and laugh. When you get to this moment, you will not think this meme is a spoiler.
Now go watch it.
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Of course literal time years. It would be about a decade before an actual ingame year has passed.
Do y’all not handwave down/travel time?
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What’s funnier is when everyone already knows you’re playing an evil character, but all their attempts to prove it in-game, even through meta-gaming, fail because the dice are on my side (evil). The best was when the DM just gave me an ability to straight up magically kill 1 person a day with a touch attack and I killed the main quest giver. Just to test it out. I was all alone with him and through my extremely high skills of deception and persuasion–and the paladin’s shitty dice rolls–I convinced the party they died of a heart attack.
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Do y’all not handwave down/travel time?
No. At best we get something like 3-4 days of ingame downtime.
Travel time is part of the dungeon.
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What’s funnier is when everyone already knows you’re playing an evil character, but all their attempts to prove it in-game, even through meta-gaming, fail because the dice are on my side (evil). The best was when the DM just gave me an ability to straight up magically kill 1 person a day with a touch attack and I killed the main quest giver. Just to test it out. I was all alone with him and through my extremely high skills of deception and persuasion–and the paladin’s shitty dice rolls–I convinced the party they died of a heart attack.
Skill issue.
PvP dialogue checks only work on other players if they allow them to, because every player can effectively set the difficulty of the check to “impossible”
This is just how the mechanics are supposed to work, btw. Persuasion checks are rarely supposed to be simple +0 contested rolls. The DM sets the difficulty for NPCs, but only you are supposed to be able to say how difficult it is to persuade your character of something.
Further, even a contested success doesn’t always equal a complete success. If the paladin is willing to buy the heart attack story because there’s no actual evidence otherwise they might still decide to harbor suspicions that make the next check harder, for example.
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Skill issue.
PvP dialogue checks only work on other players if they allow them to, because every player can effectively set the difficulty of the check to “impossible”
This is just how the mechanics are supposed to work, btw. Persuasion checks are rarely supposed to be simple +0 contested rolls. The DM sets the difficulty for NPCs, but only you are supposed to be able to say how difficult it is to persuade your character of something.
Further, even a contested success doesn’t always equal a complete success. If the paladin is willing to buy the heart attack story because there’s no actual evidence otherwise they might still decide to harbor suspicions that make the next check harder, for example.
Uh… What? Your skills are still just a d20+bonuses even against another player. Their sense motive check has to beat my bluff check to catch my lie.
I roll d20, add my whopping 33 bonus to it and that’s the DC the other player’s sense motive has to beat.
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Uh… What? Your skills are still just a d20+bonuses even against another player. Their sense motive check has to beat my bluff check to catch my lie.
I roll d20, add my whopping 33 bonus to it and that’s the DC the other player’s sense motive has to beat.
Wrong. For one thing, players don’t have to agree to contested persuasion at all, feel free to look that up. Even if they do it’s not just a simple dice contest, otherwise every face character would have free mind control over their entire party.
For example:
Player Elon Musk throws a Nazi salute. He uses his Deception +6 to claim that’s not what it is, rolls a 5 for a total of 11.
Player Not A Moron rolls a 1. This does not matter, because they know what they saw, and further, they remember all that other Nazi shit he’s been saying. They have effectly set their own Deception/Persuasion check DC to 30+, or roll+bonus+30 circumstance bonus.
Player Stupid Fucking Simp rolls a 20. This also does not matter because, as a stupid fucking simp, they already believe everything Elon says and take a -30 circumstantial negative and critical success skill checks are silly homebrew nonsense.
Tl;Dr you’re forgetting that circumstance, including character emotions and affection, affects difficulty of all skill checks. If a player agrees to ignore that that’s on them.
This also, btw, applies to NPCs trying to persuade the party. The DM does not a have a right to tell your character what they believe or disbelieve without magical effects.
If you think about it, beyond the fact of the player being the only one can say what their character is in totality and is biased towards as a result, this is how a system must work to prevent RPG horror stories of incels forcing other players into sexual or abusive situations, eg “ummm I rolled a +29 so your character has to sleep with mine and you have to roleplay it”
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Wrong. For one thing, players don’t have to agree to contested persuasion at all, feel free to look that up. Even if they do it’s not just a simple dice contest, otherwise every face character would have free mind control over their entire party.
For example:
Player Elon Musk throws a Nazi salute. He uses his Deception +6 to claim that’s not what it is, rolls a 5 for a total of 11.
Player Not A Moron rolls a 1. This does not matter, because they know what they saw, and further, they remember all that other Nazi shit he’s been saying. They have effectly set their own Deception/Persuasion check DC to 30+, or roll+bonus+30 circumstance bonus.
Player Stupid Fucking Simp rolls a 20. This also does not matter because, as a stupid fucking simp, they already believe everything Elon says and take a -30 circumstantial negative and critical success skill checks are silly homebrew nonsense.
Tl;Dr you’re forgetting that circumstance, including character emotions and affection, affects difficulty of all skill checks. If a player agrees to ignore that that’s on them.
This also, btw, applies to NPCs trying to persuade the party. The DM does not a have a right to tell your character what they believe or disbelieve without magical effects.
If you think about it, beyond the fact of the player being the only one can say what their character is in totality and is biased towards as a result, this is how a system must work to prevent RPG horror stories of incels forcing other players into sexual or abusive situations, eg “ummm I rolled a +29 so your character has to sleep with mine and you have to roleplay it”
This depends on the table and their own rules honestly. In my DM’s table we go for a contested roll of deception/insight between our players or between NPCs. Now this might not be RAW, but we do it that way and we like it since it creates funny and interesting scenarios.
And for the RPG horror stories bit, I don’t think that if the DM is trying to force something that they’ll just obey the dice blindly if they aren’t in their favour. They’re just gonna turn around and say “oh no, you didn’t pass the DC / my NPC also has +30 to his persuasion, you lose.”
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This depends on the table and their own rules honestly. In my DM’s table we go for a contested roll of deception/insight between our players or between NPCs. Now this might not be RAW, but we do it that way and we like it since it creates funny and interesting scenarios.
And for the RPG horror stories bit, I don’t think that if the DM is trying to force something that they’ll just obey the dice blindly if they aren’t in their favour. They’re just gonna turn around and say “oh no, you didn’t pass the DC / my NPC also has +30 to his persuasion, you lose.”
Sure, you can agree to anything.
If you didn’t think it through and thus suffer from skill issues.
And there are of course good stories to tell with it, like in this secret traitor situation, and good players will apply circumstantial bonuses fairly.
Like perhaps that paladin doesn’t WANT to believe their comrade is a murderer.
Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be aware that another player can’t force you into simple contested rolls on the nature of reality that you can’t possibly contest, ever.
Hell, even if they’re right! You can play a completely deluded madman that looks at a windmill, hears an NPC tell him the absolute, objective truth that it is a windmill, and decides it’s a giant instead.
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Sure, you can agree to anything.
If you didn’t think it through and thus suffer from skill issues.
And there are of course good stories to tell with it, like in this secret traitor situation, and good players will apply circumstantial bonuses fairly.
Like perhaps that paladin doesn’t WANT to believe their comrade is a murderer.
Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be aware that another player can’t force you into simple contested rolls on the nature of reality that you can’t possibly contest, ever.
Hell, even if they’re right! You can play a completely deluded madman that looks at a windmill, hears an NPC tell him the absolute, objective truth that it is a windmill, and decides it’s a giant instead.
I mean, that’s why in any such contested roll between PCs you should have both parties agree to the roll and just see how the dice land? And if they don’t agree to it, they’re free to roleplay it how they wish to. That’s how we do it at least.
I don’t see why you have to call someone’s preference on how to play a “skill issue” though.
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Wrong. For one thing, players don’t have to agree to contested persuasion at all, feel free to look that up. Even if they do it’s not just a simple dice contest, otherwise every face character would have free mind control over their entire party.
For example:
Player Elon Musk throws a Nazi salute. He uses his Deception +6 to claim that’s not what it is, rolls a 5 for a total of 11.
Player Not A Moron rolls a 1. This does not matter, because they know what they saw, and further, they remember all that other Nazi shit he’s been saying. They have effectly set their own Deception/Persuasion check DC to 30+, or roll+bonus+30 circumstance bonus.
Player Stupid Fucking Simp rolls a 20. This also does not matter because, as a stupid fucking simp, they already believe everything Elon says and take a -30 circumstantial negative and critical success skill checks are silly homebrew nonsense.
Tl;Dr you’re forgetting that circumstance, including character emotions and affection, affects difficulty of all skill checks. If a player agrees to ignore that that’s on them.
This also, btw, applies to NPCs trying to persuade the party. The DM does not a have a right to tell your character what they believe or disbelieve without magical effects.
If you think about it, beyond the fact of the player being the only one can say what their character is in totality and is biased towards as a result, this is how a system must work to prevent RPG horror stories of incels forcing other players into sexual or abusive situations, eg “ummm I rolled a +29 so your character has to sleep with mine and you have to roleplay it”
In what edition of the rules, for what system, and what page number of that rulebook would I find your version of these rules in?
They are not forced to believe anything; but they also can’t tell a lie was made unless they beat the bluff check with an opposing sense motive.
You might have a point if instead of suggesting the guy I killed had a heart attack, I suggested the paladin killed him and he was made to fully believe that. That’s not how persuasion works, even in PvE.
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Wrong. For one thing, players don’t have to agree to contested persuasion at all, feel free to look that up. Even if they do it’s not just a simple dice contest, otherwise every face character would have free mind control over their entire party.
For example:
Player Elon Musk throws a Nazi salute. He uses his Deception +6 to claim that’s not what it is, rolls a 5 for a total of 11.
Player Not A Moron rolls a 1. This does not matter, because they know what they saw, and further, they remember all that other Nazi shit he’s been saying. They have effectly set their own Deception/Persuasion check DC to 30+, or roll+bonus+30 circumstance bonus.
Player Stupid Fucking Simp rolls a 20. This also does not matter because, as a stupid fucking simp, they already believe everything Elon says and take a -30 circumstantial negative and critical success skill checks are silly homebrew nonsense.
Tl;Dr you’re forgetting that circumstance, including character emotions and affection, affects difficulty of all skill checks. If a player agrees to ignore that that’s on them.
This also, btw, applies to NPCs trying to persuade the party. The DM does not a have a right to tell your character what they believe or disbelieve without magical effects.
If you think about it, beyond the fact of the player being the only one can say what their character is in totality and is biased towards as a result, this is how a system must work to prevent RPG horror stories of incels forcing other players into sexual or abusive situations, eg “ummm I rolled a +29 so your character has to sleep with mine and you have to roleplay it”
Wouldn’t that be metagaming?
I know general game mechanics pretty well to perceive many things a character would not know. I am pretty sure that in the spirit of roleplay i have to adjust to my characters Stats.
In the example it would be Elon rolling their deception against my intelligence/perception, which whatever skill the Dm decides is most relevant. Also because the game Master is always right and has the final say as an actual dictator.
The player abuse and sex stuff just seems like a consent issue. There are probably groups that are into that just like there are many that don’t. A good Dm and play group should communicate beforehand if they allow such things and also respect peoples wish to stop playing if they are uncomfortable.
They can also use the x-card system
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I mean, that’s why in any such contested roll between PCs you should have both parties agree to the roll and just see how the dice land? And if they don’t agree to it, they’re free to roleplay it how they wish to. That’s how we do it at least.
I don’t see why you have to call someone’s preference on how to play a “skill issue” though.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but from their response and seeing this situation happen so often it sure doesn’t seem like the players are aware that all skill checks have inherently circumstantial difficulties.
Simple roll vs roll contests just tend to be the default of players that haven’t read the rules for these circumstances, something about the way the game is set up just doesn’t clue players into that fact.
Maybe it’s just that players simply aren’t primed to accept that they can set their own DC bonus and it’s not even metagaming? It’s basically the only circumstance that they can. It’s probably a good DM habit to get into, come to think. “What’s your character’s willingness to believe this” type prompting.
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Perhaps I’m wrong, but from their response and seeing this situation happen so often it sure doesn’t seem like the players are aware that all skill checks have inherently circumstantial difficulties.
Simple roll vs roll contests just tend to be the default of players that haven’t read the rules for these circumstances, something about the way the game is set up just doesn’t clue players into that fact.
Maybe it’s just that players simply aren’t primed to accept that they can set their own DC bonus and it’s not even metagaming? It’s basically the only circumstance that they can. It’s probably a good DM habit to get into, come to think. “What’s your character’s willingness to believe this” type prompting.
Those circumstancial bonuses or penalties are given by the DM. If the DM doesn’t inform the players what they are for the current situation, thats the fault of the DM, not the players. It also still is just a d20+bonuses. Those circumstantial things are part of the bonuses applied to the roll.
Where are you getting that players set the DC themselves? It’s set like everything else: By rolling the dice and applying all applicable bonuses and penalties. Now, I still play 3.5 and the rules for bluff vs sense motive are quite clear in the book that the player using sense motive has to just get a higher score than the bluff score. It does not at all differentiate between NPCs or PCs. And why should it? It already makes sense where the DC is coming from.
