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Dual Wielding [Dungeons & Dragons]

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  • tgirlschierkeT tgirlschierke
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    soup@lemmy.world
    wrote last edited by
    #32

    People desperately need to understand that mechanical rules are there for balancing and taking them so painfully literally just isnโ€™t necessary.

    You only get one unarmed attack on the dice, but if you want to say you did the damage in two or three hits instead of one then go for it, it literally does not matter. You can even say you missed one attack and them wound up for a sneaky second one!

    Follow the rules for number related things and roleplay and tell a story for being cool related things.

    HossenfefferH ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐ŸŒ€ ๐Ÿ‡ฑ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ณ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐Ÿ‡ฎ K N 3 Replies Last reply
    24
    • S soup@lemmy.world

      People desperately need to understand that mechanical rules are there for balancing and taking them so painfully literally just isnโ€™t necessary.

      You only get one unarmed attack on the dice, but if you want to say you did the damage in two or three hits instead of one then go for it, it literally does not matter. You can even say you missed one attack and them wound up for a sneaky second one!

      Follow the rules for number related things and roleplay and tell a story for being cool related things.

      HossenfefferH This user is from outside of this forum
      HossenfefferH This user is from outside of this forum
      Hossenfeffer
      wrote last edited by
      #33

      โ€ฆ and this is why I donโ€™t play D&D. Itโ€™s all abstract. Itโ€™s more like a board game than an RPG.

      [Obviously, this is just my opinion, and itโ€™s subjective, and itโ€™s probably wrong. But, we are where we are.]

      ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W I S 3 Replies Last reply
      2
      • E emeralddawn45@lemmy.dbzer0.com

        Pretty sure this is rules as written or at least as interpreted by Baldurโ€™s Gate 3. Itโ€™s been a while since my playthrough but Iโ€™m pretty sure I was doing this with Astarion the whole time. Knife in one hand unarmed strike with the other. Warrior monk rogue kicked ass.

        owenfromcanada@lemmy.caO This user is from outside of this forum
        owenfromcanada@lemmy.caO This user is from outside of this forum
        owenfromcanada@lemmy.ca
        wrote last edited by
        #34

        In BG3, you have to multiclass into rogue for the off-hand attack. But yeah, I think it would let you โ€œdual wieldโ€ with a single light weapon.

        F 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • susaga@sh.itjust.worksS susaga@sh.itjust.works

          Thereโ€™s a phenomenon in TTRPGs called a Mermaids Amulet. There was an item in a game that let a mermaid breathe in air, which was the ONLY thing that indicated they normally couldnโ€™t. In short, a rule was only shown to exist by an ability to overcome it.

          Monks have the ability to make a bonus action unarmed strike after making an attack, which would be redundant if the dual wielding rules let you do that.

          _lilith@lemmy.world_ This user is from outside of this forum
          _lilith@lemmy.world_ This user is from outside of this forum
          _lilith@lemmy.world
          wrote last edited by
          #35

          thought that just let them add their modifier to the second attack

          susaga@sh.itjust.worksS 1 Reply Last reply
          4
          • _lilith@lemmy.world_ _lilith@lemmy.world

            thought that just let them add their modifier to the second attack

            susaga@sh.itjust.worksS This user is from outside of this forum
            susaga@sh.itjust.worksS This user is from outside of this forum
            susaga@sh.itjust.works
            wrote last edited by
            #36

            If that was the case, itโ€™d be phrased more like Two Weapon Fighting from the fighterโ€™s fighting styles. But instead of saying you can add your modifier, it says you can make an unarmed strike. Which means you couldnโ€™t before.

            ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W 1 Reply Last reply
            4
            • S soup@lemmy.world

              People desperately need to understand that mechanical rules are there for balancing and taking them so painfully literally just isnโ€™t necessary.

              You only get one unarmed attack on the dice, but if you want to say you did the damage in two or three hits instead of one then go for it, it literally does not matter. You can even say you missed one attack and them wound up for a sneaky second one!

              Follow the rules for number related things and roleplay and tell a story for being cool related things.

              ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐ŸŒ€ ๐Ÿ‡ฑ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ณ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐Ÿ‡ฎ K This user is from outside of this forum
              ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐ŸŒ€ ๐Ÿ‡ฑ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ณ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐Ÿ‡ฎ K This user is from outside of this forum
              ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐ŸŒ€ ๐Ÿ‡ฑ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ณ ๐Ÿ‡ฆ ๐Ÿ‡ฐ ๐Ÿ‡ฎ
              wrote last edited by kolanaki@pawb.social
              #37

              As DM, Iโ€™ll have you roll the dice, tell you if it succeeded or not, and then have YOU describe what happens based on the roll.

              But with this particular thing, itโ€™s not really about the story. Itโ€™s the player trying to maximize their bonuses so the dice will be more favorable. In which case, sure. You can dual wield your hands. But youโ€™re still taking a penalty with your off-hand unless you have the feat that removes it. You ever try to punch someone with your non-dominant arm? You definitely take a penalty IRL, unless youโ€™re ambidextrous.

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              • tgirlschierkeT tgirlschierke
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                ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–
                wrote last edited by
                #38

                Unarmed Strikes are not just punches, they have nothing to do with how many hands you have. You can even Unarmed Strike with a weapon in each hand. If you want to โ€œdual wieldโ€ Unarmed Strikes, go Monk.

                1 Reply Last reply
                4
                • HossenfefferH Hossenfeffer

                  โ€ฆ and this is why I donโ€™t play D&D. Itโ€™s all abstract. Itโ€™s more like a board game than an RPG.

                  [Obviously, this is just my opinion, and itโ€™s subjective, and itโ€™s probably wrong. But, we are where we are.]

                  ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W This user is from outside of this forum
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                  ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–
                  wrote last edited by
                  #39

                  There are other games with fewer mechanical rules where you can go crazy with this kinda stuff. D&D is one of the most mechanically crunchy ones out there

                  HossenfefferH 1 Reply Last reply
                  2
                  • owenfromcanada@lemmy.caO owenfromcanada@lemmy.ca

                    I canโ€™t imagine too many scenarios where allowing someone who is wielding a one-handed (or versatile) weapon and nothing in the off hand to have a bonus action unarmed strike to be game-breaking. Seems like an easy call to me.

                    ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W This user is from outside of this forum
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                    wrote last edited by witchfire@lemmy.world
                    #40

                    So thereโ€™s a few issues here:

                    • Unarmed Strikes do not require an open hand. Punches, kicks, and slams all count as the same Unarmed Strike
                    • If you were to allow this, there would be no reason to allow someone with two Shortswords or a Greataxe to do a BA strike
                    • โ€ฆwhich would then render the BA attack from Polearm Master moot since they no longer need a feat to do that
                    • Iโ€™ll also note that the fighter with a sword in one hand and nothing in the other is likely using the Duelist fighting style, so that sword attack is effectively two die sizes larger. A Duelist Longsword is roughly equivalent to a Greatsword to put it in perspective

                    At the end of the day, allowing martials to perform a BA Unarmed Strike wouldnโ€™t be game breaking, but it needs to be applied universally which has secondary implications

                    F owenfromcanada@lemmy.caO 2 Replies Last reply
                    6
                    • susaga@sh.itjust.worksS susaga@sh.itjust.works

                      If that was the case, itโ€™d be phrased more like Two Weapon Fighting from the fighterโ€™s fighting styles. But instead of saying you can add your modifier, it says you can make an unarmed strike. Which means you couldnโ€™t before.

                      ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W This user is from outside of this forum
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                      ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–
                      wrote last edited by
                      #41

                      An Unarmed Strike without modifier would also be literally 1 point of damage, barring Monk or Unarmed Fighting Style

                      susaga@sh.itjust.worksS 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–

                        An Unarmed Strike without modifier would also be literally 1 point of damage, barring Monk or Unarmed Fighting Style

                        susaga@sh.itjust.worksS This user is from outside of this forum
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                        susaga@sh.itjust.works
                        wrote last edited by
                        #42

                        I am directly talking about the Monk, though

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        1
                        • ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–

                          There are other games with fewer mechanical rules where you can go crazy with this kinda stuff. D&D is one of the most mechanically crunchy ones out there

                          HossenfefferH This user is from outside of this forum
                          HossenfefferH This user is from outside of this forum
                          Hossenfeffer
                          wrote last edited by
                          #43

                          Yes.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • owenfromcanada@lemmy.caO owenfromcanada@lemmy.ca

                            In BG3, you have to multiclass into rogue for the off-hand attack. But yeah, I think it would let you โ€œdual wieldโ€ with a single light weapon.

                            F This user is from outside of this forum
                            F This user is from outside of this forum
                            Fushuan [he/him]
                            wrote last edited by
                            #44

                            Thatโ€™s incorrect, if you are able to dual wield you can bonus action attack, the issue is that you get only 1 offhand attack and it doesnโ€™t get your str/dex to damage without the feat. Also, after lvl 5 other classes get to multi attack with the mainhand, but the offhand gets only 1 attack. 2 if you get the extra bonus action from thief.

                            You need to use light weapons though.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            1
                            • ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–

                              So thereโ€™s a few issues here:

                              • Unarmed Strikes do not require an open hand. Punches, kicks, and slams all count as the same Unarmed Strike
                              • If you were to allow this, there would be no reason to allow someone with two Shortswords or a Greataxe to do a BA strike
                              • โ€ฆwhich would then render the BA attack from Polearm Master moot since they no longer need a feat to do that
                              • Iโ€™ll also note that the fighter with a sword in one hand and nothing in the other is likely using the Duelist fighting style, so that sword attack is effectively two die sizes larger. A Duelist Longsword is roughly equivalent to a Greatsword to put it in perspective

                              At the end of the day, allowing martials to perform a BA Unarmed Strike wouldnโ€™t be game breaking, but it needs to be applied universally which has secondary implications

                              F This user is from outside of this forum
                              F This user is from outside of this forum
                              Fushuan [he/him]
                              wrote last edited by
                              #45

                              You need to be trained in some sort of unarmed fighting style to be able to throw a kick in between slashes. If you did it untrained, it would leave you unbalanced and prone to get hit.

                              Makes sense to let a monk with a quarterstaff do it and not a barb with a great axe.

                              ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W 1 Reply Last reply
                              1
                              • HossenfefferH Hossenfeffer

                                โ€ฆ and this is why I donโ€™t play D&D. Itโ€™s all abstract. Itโ€™s more like a board game than an RPG.

                                [Obviously, this is just my opinion, and itโ€™s subjective, and itโ€™s probably wrong. But, we are where we are.]

                                I This user is from outside of this forum
                                I This user is from outside of this forum
                                ilinamorato@lemmy.world
                                wrote last edited by
                                #46

                                You have to abstract something for a game, though. So are you saying you want it less abstract in that you want less of it to rely on dice (and thus more role playing), or do you want it less abstract in that you want more crunch and mechanics for, like, pooping?

                                HossenfefferH 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • tgirlschierkeT tgirlschierke
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                                  angrystego@lemmy.world
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #47

                                  Read it as dual welding and was quite impressed by the concept.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  2
                                  • F Fushuan [he/him]

                                    You need to be trained in some sort of unarmed fighting style to be able to throw a kick in between slashes. If you did it untrained, it would leave you unbalanced and prone to get hit.

                                    Makes sense to let a monk with a quarterstaff do it and not a barb with a great axe.

                                    ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W This user is from outside of this forum
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                                    ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #48

                                    Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike

                                    D&D isnโ€™t a real world simulator. It values them all equally.

                                    F 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–W ๐•ฑ๐–Ž๐–—๐–Š๐–œ๐–Ž๐–™๐–ˆ๐–

                                      So thereโ€™s a few issues here:

                                      • Unarmed Strikes do not require an open hand. Punches, kicks, and slams all count as the same Unarmed Strike
                                      • If you were to allow this, there would be no reason to allow someone with two Shortswords or a Greataxe to do a BA strike
                                      • โ€ฆwhich would then render the BA attack from Polearm Master moot since they no longer need a feat to do that
                                      • Iโ€™ll also note that the fighter with a sword in one hand and nothing in the other is likely using the Duelist fighting style, so that sword attack is effectively two die sizes larger. A Duelist Longsword is roughly equivalent to a Greatsword to put it in perspective

                                      At the end of the day, allowing martials to perform a BA Unarmed Strike wouldnโ€™t be game breaking, but it needs to be applied universally which has secondary implications

                                      owenfromcanada@lemmy.caO This user is from outside of this forum
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                                      owenfromcanada@lemmy.ca
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #49

                                      As far as I remember the rules, unarmed strike damage is 1 + Str modifier (i.e., a 1d1 damage die). And anyone untrained in unarmed strikes (not monk, not having the Tavern Brawler feat or similar) couldnโ€™t add their prof bonus to the attack roll. This makes it significantly weaker than a proper dual wielding build or something like PAM, where the attacker typically gets a proper damage die and prof bonus. Which is why it doesnโ€™t seem like a big deal to allow it.

                                      Unarmed strikes can be done for flavor with kicks, elbows, etc. But mechanically Iโ€™d allow it as a proper bonus action if the character were wielding a single weapon without a shield. Anyone can describe anything however they want for flavor, Iโ€™m just talking about balancing the action economy.

                                      M 1 Reply Last reply
                                      2
                                      • I ilinamorato@lemmy.world

                                        You have to abstract something for a game, though. So are you saying you want it less abstract in that you want less of it to rely on dice (and thus more role playing), or do you want it less abstract in that you want more crunch and mechanics for, like, pooping?

                                        HossenfefferH This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        Hossenfeffer
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #50

                                        I was more thinking about the abstraction of things like character classes and levels. โ€œIโ€™m a knight and can only more in L-shapes.โ€ or โ€œIโ€™m a seventh level human.โ€ Thatโ€™s what I mean about it being more like a board game than an RPG. Compare โ€œIโ€™m a third level barbarianโ€ to, eg, Call of Cthulhu and โ€œIโ€™m a pilot who was a POW in WWI which is when I picked up fluency in German.โ€ One of those is a potential character, the other is just a playing piece.

                                        I 1 Reply Last reply
                                        2
                                        • T twiddletwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone

                                          So weโ€™re just giving out bonus actions now? /s

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                                          wiz@midwest.social
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #51

                                          Free actions? In this economy?

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