Canada finally reveals the results of its universal basic income experiment
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Napkin math will demonstrate to you why UBI is not sustainable on scale, even with an increase in taxes.
mind doing that napkin math?
I did a while ago and i found that if an annual wealth tax rate of 3% on wealth above $10 million is implemented, then it would be enough to give all americans a monthly handout of $300, and that was by rather conservative estimates. It might be higher.
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The idea of UBI is a great one, and I agree with it in principle, but I have yet to run any numbers that make it viable and that is my number one issue.
I just finished an edit to my original post going into more detail with the numbers. If you have any data that can show how the money can be made so that “you never earn less by working harder” and “everyone gets an even payment” I would be really interested to see it because I have not found anything realistic.
The US spends $880 billion on military spending in 2023. That’s 20% of its annual budget. Source
The US has roughly 350 million inhabitants. Divide that and get that you could give $2.5K annually to each person as handouts. And we’re not even talking about tax reforms here.
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Funny how people hoarding all the money and preventing it from getting back into the economy are choking out the economy and crippling the country.
Who knew parasites did this to their hosts?
parasites in nature try to keep their host alive and happy for as long as possible sothat they too can live. modern capitalists are an exceptionally nasty parasite that actively drains and kills its host.
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You’re looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.
We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.
Bullshit
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These studies are annoying. “Study finds if you give people money they do better in life” Wow. Such rocket science.
But for all the radical socialists trying push UBI, you will note that NONE of them want to pay for it with their tax increases (do they even pay taxes?). Which is the entire problem. There may be some savings in the system but the COST will be borne up front by the taxpaayer. And since WHEN in the history of mankind, if a gov has saved some money in other areas, have they LOWERED taxes due to the savings? Never.Therefore UBI is sever going to happen. Because the only people who support it are students and academics and think tanks. The rest of us live in reality and are sick of our very high tax burden in Canada. So enough with the studies, kill this idea once and for all.
UBI helps the people and not the billionaires. I don’t see why you’re siding with the billionaires.
So enough with this babbling, kill this bullshit once and for all.
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Who said anything about ‘fuck you I got mine?’
First of all Canada already has a TON of social supports for anyone who is in need. We have Employment Insurance if you lose your job. We have Old Age Security and Canada Pension Plan for seniors. We have Child Tax Credits for parents and especially single parents. We have the GST credit to give back taxes to low income earners. We have the Canada Workers Benefit. We have the Canada Disability Benefit. We have the Assured Income for Severely Handicapped. We have disability pensions. We have Universal Pharmacare for prescription drugs. We have housing benefits/social housing programs. We have the Canadian Dental Benefit. We have student aid. There are free food banks in every city. And there are emergency funds available for things like rent/damage deposits on an emergency basis from every province through various community agencies, charities, and non-profit organizations.
So WHY do we need UBI on top of all that? If you need help in Canada, you CAN find it. Its already here.
Source: I founded a charity for street kids in one of our major cities thats been operating for 33 years. There is a TON of support out there. The fact is that a LOT of the people on the street know how to use and abuse the system and they dont WANT to get out of it because its what they grew up in and what they are accustomed to. I speak from years of experience.
It boggles my mind how some people would fight against getting money each month.
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The US spends $880 billion on military spending in 2023. That’s 20% of its annual budget. Source
The US has roughly 350 million inhabitants. Divide that and get that you could give $2.5K annually to each person as handouts. And we’re not even talking about tax reforms here.
The US spends $880 billion on military spending in 2023. That’s 20% of its annual budget. Source
The US has roughly 350 million inhabitants. Divide that and get that you could give $2.5K annually to each person as handouts. And we’re not even talking about tax reforms here.
Three points.
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This is about Canada.
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From my earlier post: “UBI isn’t the best solution out there, it is a highly polarized idea, and funding for a program on scale would cost Billions, requiring trillions in revenue to be a viable option.”
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You just paid for 1 month of UBI cutting the entire military budget for a year, which took 20% of the annual budget, leaving another 4 months of payment before the country has no budget left.
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mind doing that napkin math?
I did a while ago and i found that if an annual wealth tax rate of 3% on wealth above $10 million is implemented, then it would be enough to give all americans a monthly handout of $300, and that was by rather conservative estimates. It might be higher.
I did it above if you are interested.
Do you believe $300 a month is sufficient for survival using the core idea of UBI?
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I did it above if you are interested.
Do you believe $300 a month is sufficient for survival using the core idea of UBI?
Do you believe $300 a month is sufficient for survival using the core idea of UBI?
It’s a start. We’ll see how things develop in the future. A first step needs to be made.
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Many middle class Canadian pay 25% or more just in income tax. Then you have to add sales taxes, property taxes, and the rest.
I would say he is about right.
The top income tax bracket is over 50%. If you are very high income, you can pay well over 30% just in income tax (overall).
For anybody that does not understand progressive income tax brackets, a top rate of 50% does not mean you pay 50% on all income. You pay nothing to a certain point, pay a lower percentage up to a certain level, and then it goes up on what you make beyond that level. On the 30,000th dollar you make, you might pay 25 cents tax. On the 200,000th dollar, you might pay 53 cents. On your first dollar, you pay nothing.
Oh no! Won’t someone think about the highest earners! #clutchpearls
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Do you believe $300 a month is sufficient for survival using the core idea of UBI?
It’s a start. We’ll see how things develop in the future. A first step needs to be made.
You are also okay with those payments going to the ultra wealthy using the core idea of UBI?
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UBI would also be good for the economy, as it stimulates consumerism. To economists, CEOs and politicians, you have to talk about the positive effects on the economy.
Indeed, it isn’t like the money paid out for UBI just goes into a black hole. Sure, some will save it. But many will spend it.
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You are also okay with those payments going to the ultra wealthy using the core idea of UBI?
yes, why not?
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We’re not quite there yet. Even with offsets by eliminating virtually all other social programs, including socialized healthcare, and slashing the size of military expenditures to almost nothing, doing every single good idea there is to fund it and increasing taxation on the owner class, there simply isn’t enought GDP to support it without spending your way into inflation… not unless you’re a country with a very small population rich in natural resources.
It’s plausible if we can bring the price of energy down to the point that it’s negligible and multiplies productivity almost for free.
We need scalable commercial fusion power to make it work, basically.
I agree with the goal,l. I don’t think people will contribute less without the threat of being unable to meet basic costs of living. I think a lot of people’s contributions to society aren’t adequately captured and recorded by our economic system.
But I’m not naive enough to believe that it can meet all of a person’s cost of living with current tech.
Tell me you don’t know how UBI works in design or in practice without telling me you haven’t learned much about it at all.
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Controlled rent is better than uncontrolled rent, but it suffers from the same problems as minimum wage. And why should landlords even exist? I’m not convinced private rentals should be legal at all. If you’re not using a property for personal use or a place of business, why shouldn’t it be seized and auctioned or rented publicly?
Rentals do have their place for people like students, and some businesses who regularly send employees to a city(rare but it happens). Rentals are not inherently bad, but the expectation that someone should rent as a longterm plan is completely fucked. We do not need this many many rental units in the world, not at all.
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The US spends $880 billion on military spending in 2023. That’s 20% of its annual budget. Source
The US has roughly 350 million inhabitants. Divide that and get that you could give $2.5K annually to each person as handouts. And we’re not even talking about tax reforms here.
Three points.
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This is about Canada.
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From my earlier post: “UBI isn’t the best solution out there, it is a highly polarized idea, and funding for a program on scale would cost Billions, requiring trillions in revenue to be a viable option.”
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You just paid for 1 month of UBI cutting the entire military budget for a year, which took 20% of the annual budget, leaving another 4 months of payment before the country has no budget left.
You keep pretending all over this thread that you would be increasing the income of everyone. You’re ignoring completely that you change the tax system so that wealthy people pay more than at present so it’s not inventing money, it’s redistributing it. You also cancel a bunch of social security programs that it replaces.
Your sums are based on false assumptions and you’re just spreading your FUD which is itself based on ignorance and fear. Stop trying to sound like you know something about it when you keep multiplying the population by the payment as if that was relevant in isolation of everything else that’s part of UBI.
If you want to sound knowledgeable, first so the reading work of learning.
But I think you don’t want to learn you just want to criticise because you don’t like the idea of money going from rich to poor.
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Why don’t you stop and smell the roses?
Jumping to such a conclusion, then blaming the hypothetical reaction, displays ignorance or malice.
I’m pretty sure they meant that “the result they want” (“UBI is bad”) would be peer reviewed and shown to be bunk, but the people who wanted that result will ignore the peer review results.
They weren’t disagreeing with the original comment, just adding to it.
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yes, why not?
Because someone with Billions doesn’t need $300 a month that could go to funding social services for people who need them.
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I’m pretty sure they meant that “the result they want” (“UBI is bad”) would be peer reviewed and shown to be bunk, but the people who wanted that result will ignore the peer review results.
They weren’t disagreeing with the original comment, just adding to it.
If so, then my reaction was ignorant and I retract it
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I would rather see socialized housing, food, and (better) medical coverage than UBI. UBI could (maybe) cause the prices of essentials like housing to increase.
