UK PEOPLE: this is REALLY IMPORTANT.
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@Fonant @david_chisnall Doesn't matter: if the law goes on the books then at any point where your phone/laptop/etc is seized for other reasons it may be discovered to have an illegal VPN and then you get prosecuted.
@cstross @david_chisnall That assumes that I do something that is bad enough for government to seize my computer.
Unless they do, there is no way (without GCHQ spending a lot of time and effort) that a VPN ban could be enforced.
If I did do something that got the attention of the security services, having a VPN without age restrictions is going to be the least of my problems!
It's the same as the Online Safety Act. It makes a lot of noise, but is almost entirely unenforceable (see: Ofcom's fine for 4chan).
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RE: https://social.vivaldi.net/@LonM/115966748145817371
UK PEOPLE: this is REALLY IMPORTANT. If the government bans under-16s from using VPNs, then logically they must intend to REQUIRE AGE VERIFICATION FOR ALL VPN USE. Which will affect adults too!
*Your* privacy and right to anonymous web browsing is at risk!
@cstross It's ALWAYS about control and NEVER about protecting the kids. The latter would require adults to ensure safe spaces for children, which is hard, and undesirable for a plethora of other nefarious reasons; hence, GeStaPo Blitzkrieg it is. @craignicol
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@cstross @david_chisnall That assumes that I do something that is bad enough for government to seize my computer.
Unless they do, there is no way (without GCHQ spending a lot of time and effort) that a VPN ban could be enforced.
If I did do something that got the attention of the security services, having a VPN without age restrictions is going to be the least of my problems!
It's the same as the Online Safety Act. It makes a lot of noise, but is almost entirely unenforceable (see: Ofcom's fine for 4chan).
@Fonant @david_chisnall You Are Wrong. The government can seize your computer and *then* search it, if you did something else. Consider why rape prosecutions in the UK collapsed since 2018—cops routinely seized and searched rape victims' phones for evidence of contact with the alleged rapist before or after the incident, so they stopped coming forward.
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@Fonant @david_chisnall Doesn't matter: if the law goes on the books then at any point where your phone/laptop/etc is seized for other reasons it may be discovered to have an illegal VPN and then you get prosecuted.
Unless I misunderstood the proposed law, it's the VPN operator that would be prosecuted in this case. They may lose their ability to take money from people in the UK.
If I'm over 18, it is not illegal for me to use the VPN, so someone would have to prove that I am using it but no one checked that I was over 18. If I am under 18, then the provider is at more legal risk but they could claim that they did age verification and this user managed to bypass it somehow.
The simplest way of doing age verification is to require a payment from a credit card in your name. The easiest way of bypassing this is to use a parent's credit card. If a company takes payment for VPN use via credit card, and makes a minimal effort to not accept debit cards or pre-paid cards for folks in the UK, they're probably okay.
Which doesn't mean that this is in any way a sensible law.
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Unless I misunderstood the proposed law, it's the VPN operator that would be prosecuted in this case. They may lose their ability to take money from people in the UK.
If I'm over 18, it is not illegal for me to use the VPN, so someone would have to prove that I am using it but no one checked that I was over 18. If I am under 18, then the provider is at more legal risk but they could claim that they did age verification and this user managed to bypass it somehow.
The simplest way of doing age verification is to require a payment from a credit card in your name. The easiest way of bypassing this is to use a parent's credit card. If a company takes payment for VPN use via credit card, and makes a minimal effort to not accept debit cards or pre-paid cards for folks in the UK, they're probably okay.
Which doesn't mean that this is in any way a sensible law.
@david_chisnall @cstross The government has to discover that there is an illegal VPN being used in the first place.
It is quite possible for millions of VPNs to be made available to UK children, hosted all over the world. Perhaps hosted by children, sharing the small monthly server costs. Quite secret, extremely difficult to find.
The proposed law could only ever hope to apply to a few big VPN companies. Which just moves the VPN usage by children underground, where other dangers lurk.
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@Fonant @david_chisnall You Are Wrong. The government can seize your computer and *then* search it, if you did something else. Consider why rape prosecutions in the UK collapsed since 2018—cops routinely seized and searched rape victims' phones for evidence of contact with the alleged rapist before or after the incident, so they stopped coming forward.
@cstross @david_chisnall I'm not planning to do anything that would result in the government seizing my computer
There is no way the government can know whether or not I use a VPN or not, nor whether I use TOR.
Unless the law allows the police to randomly inspect people's computers, and they do this to a significant proportion of the population, I can use any VPN I like without fear. We don't live in a police state yet...
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RE: https://social.vivaldi.net/@LonM/115966748145817371
UK PEOPLE: this is REALLY IMPORTANT. If the government bans under-16s from using VPNs, then logically they must intend to REQUIRE AGE VERIFICATION FOR ALL VPN USE. Which will affect adults too!
*Your* privacy and right to anonymous web browsing is at risk!
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@fazalmajid Right, so that would require me to learn and install OpenBSD and a full stack. (The last BSD I used in anger was SunOS 4.1.3.)
@cstross there are others, like Argo, or Streisand (linked in the README), but more annoying because they unnecessarily require you to have Ansible installed on your system.
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RE: https://social.vivaldi.net/@LonM/115966748145817371
UK PEOPLE: this is REALLY IMPORTANT. If the government bans under-16s from using VPNs, then logically they must intend to REQUIRE AGE VERIFICATION FOR ALL VPN USE. Which will affect adults too!
*Your* privacy and right to anonymous web browsing is at risk!
The assumption is that the govt needs to implement age verification for an ostensibly sensible reason (in this case preventing under-16s accessing unsuitable material), but in reality age verification is often no different to identity verification and so by extension the govt ends up verifying the identity of the user of every mobile device, which thanks to the general dependency on Apple and Google phones would give the govt the ability to identify and track anyone with a smartphone.
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@Fonant @david_chisnall You Are Wrong. The government can seize your computer and *then* search it, if you did something else. Consider why rape prosecutions in the UK collapsed since 2018—cops routinely seized and searched rape victims' phones for evidence of contact with the alleged rapist before or after the incident, so they stopped coming forward.
@cstross @david_chisnall I agree. Allowing for inspection of innocent people's personal computers is both unacceptable and also counter-productive for law enforcement.
The police are not going to be randomly doing "illegal VPN inspections" on everyone. They can only target the few big public VPN services, and persuade them to add age verification.
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@oschonrock
I'm assuming that this is the government's intention. To produce a generation of teenagers who understand TOR, and choose to use it as a first step, using their phones as routers and randomised exit points.
@cstrossI have no idea if that is their intention. Highly doubt it, given how clueless they are.
The smart ones will use TOR bridges so it's even less trackable.
But then you were probably being sarcastic, and well, I agree. That's what happens when you put stupid logs in people's way.. they learn to jump over them. And some will break their legs doing it.
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@cstross @david_chisnall I'm not planning to do anything that would result in the government seizing my computer
There is no way the government can know whether or not I use a VPN or not, nor whether I use TOR.
Unless the law allows the police to randomly inspect people's computers, and they do this to a significant proportion of the population, I can use any VPN I like without fear. We don't live in a police state yet...
@Fonant @david_chisnall Sure you're not planning on doing anything. That doesn't mean it won't happen to you. Remember, "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" was a favourite saying of Lavrenti Beria.
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So in the context of this discussion, and if you lived in the UK, would you object to being age/identity verified when purchasing your vpn subscription?
It is almost certainly not an annonymous transaction anyway, as those are very very difficult to execute..?
@oschonrock @PeterSommerlad @cstross I'm presuming they'd want to check your age every time you USE a VPN connection? Otherwise the restriction on underage use would be meaningless.
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@cstross Ethical issues aside - how are m2m VPNs expected to validate their age?
"hi, I'm an environment monitoring device and was born barely 6 months ago, but I swear I'm old enough to use my built-in VPN to access my MQTT server"
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@oschonrock @PeterSommerlad @cstross I'm presuming they'd want to check your age every time you USE a VPN connection? Otherwise the restriction on underage use would be meaningless.
@Fonant @oschonrock @PeterSommerlad The people proposing this amendment in the House of Lords are technical illiterates, that's what makes this so dangerous. So it will be interpreted over-broadly and damagingly with inevitable, unpredictable, side-effects.
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@oschonrock @PeterSommerlad @cstross I'm presuming they'd want to check your age every time you USE a VPN connection? Otherwise the restriction on underage use would be meaningless.
@Fonant @PeterSommerlad @cstross
I doubt that... Or actually... they prob haven't thought about that sort of useful detail.
But just like when your porn account has been age/verified once, you then just "log in" (or carry some kind jwt in a permanent cookie) for subsequent usage.
And yes, if your kid can get access to your computer and log in as you, then all bets are off.
VPNs will likely be similar?
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@Fonant @david_chisnall Sure you're not planning on doing anything. That doesn't mean it won't happen to you. Remember, "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" was a favourite saying of Lavrenti Beria.
@cstross @david_chisnall The likelihood of the police taking my computer for forensic examination is zero.
I have plenty of things that I must keep private. So does everyone.
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@Fonant @oschonrock @PeterSommerlad The people proposing this amendment in the House of Lords are technical illiterates, that's what makes this so dangerous. So it will be interpreted over-broadly and damagingly with inevitable, unpredictable, side-effects.
@cstross @Fonant @PeterSommerlad
100% agreed...
The entire bill is totally technically illiterate with all sorts of backfiring fishhooks... embarrasing really.
No idea why Labour feels the need to do this sort of thing.
Worldproof the child, not childproof the world. And parents' responsibility.
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@Fonant @PeterSommerlad @cstross
I doubt that... Or actually... they prob haven't thought about that sort of useful detail.
But just like when your porn account has been age/verified once, you then just "log in" (or carry some kind jwt in a permanent cookie) for subsequent usage.
And yes, if your kid can get access to your computer and log in as you, then all bets are off.
VPNs will likely be similar?
@oschonrock @PeterSommerlad @cstross Yes. They can legislate as much as they want to age-verify all VPN users. Mathematics and logic makes this impossible to enforce in any meaningful way, though.
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@Uilebheist @cstross "I'm an aging router, and I assume responsibility for any outbound packets these young devices connecting to me may send "
