Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.
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Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.
Notably, for a game that otherwise has a very western idea of society, monks are taken directly from Chinese wuxia and plopped in with barely an explanation of how that works.
1/?
#ttrpgWorse: when monks actually do show up in scenarios set in standard DnD settings, those are almost always some variation on western monks in the style of The Name of the Rose.
Because the location of a monastery or abbey is firmly entrenched in the cultural mindspace of people, and wholly seperate from the concept of the monk class.
2/?
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Worse: when monks actually do show up in scenarios set in standard DnD settings, those are almost always some variation on western monks in the style of The Name of the Rose.
Because the location of a monastery or abbey is firmly entrenched in the cultural mindspace of people, and wholly seperate from the concept of the monk class.
2/?Also: why is the class called monk and female members of it are also monks and not nuns?
3/?
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Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.
Notably, for a game that otherwise has a very western idea of society, monks are taken directly from Chinese wuxia and plopped in with barely an explanation of how that works.
1/?
#ttrpg@kyonshi The "western" setting is mostly Gygaxian, tho. Blackmoor had a mashup of anything Dave found interesting, Mongol hordes and spacemen included. Greyhawk was all western Europe 16th C pastiche with glaive-guisarme-voulge-isans. Almost every other setting from the early days was a mashup, too. Samurai & ninja were all over the place. If Conan's the model, he routinely visited Africa & some Arabia.
The monsters are from all over, why shouldn't the adventurers be, too?
#ttrpg #osr #dnd -
Also: why is the class called monk and female members of it are also monks and not nuns?
3/?
Ok, we know why that all is. The monk was one of the first additional characters that appeared for DND, in D&D supplement II: Blackmoor, right after the thief (in Supplement 1: Greyhawk, yes the thief wasn't one of the original classes) and together with the assassin.
Blackmoor was the name of Dave Arneson's home game, the famous first fantasy campaign, and the book contained basically nothing about the setting, just some additional rules Arneson had come up with for his game.
4/?
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Also: why is the class called monk and female members of it are also monks and not nuns?
3/?
Western/European traditions do have our own "warrior monks", but they were closer to the Paladin class - while still being monks and priests, they fought with swords and shields and other typical weaponry. Templars, crusaders, that sort of thing.
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Also: why is the class called monk and female members of it are also monks and not nuns?
3/?
@kyonshi Because AD&D was extremely sexist and women weren't expected (or allowed, depending on stat limits) to be anything?
Shaolin school didn't historically allow women to fight, either, but kung fu movies never seemed to care, and kinda gloss over any religious training.
Sometimes Ninja are also addressed as Kunoichi, but it's not necessary to gender it in Japanese.
#ttrpg #dnd #osr -
Ok, we know why that all is. The monk was one of the first additional characters that appeared for DND, in D&D supplement II: Blackmoor, right after the thief (in Supplement 1: Greyhawk, yes the thief wasn't one of the original classes) and together with the assassin.
Blackmoor was the name of Dave Arneson's home game, the famous first fantasy campaign, and the book contained basically nothing about the setting, just some additional rules Arneson had come up with for his game.
4/?
And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?
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Western/European traditions do have our own "warrior monks", but they were closer to the Paladin class - while still being monks and priests, they fought with swords and shields and other typical weaponry. Templars, crusaders, that sort of thing.
@thevhswizard which basically is the original cleric class I would argue
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?@kyonshi When I was 10, buying every DnD book I could find at swap meets and trying to teach myself this game, I was so confused by this class, and went through exactly the thought process you lay out here.
"A monk... Like Friar Tuck, I guess? Okay, that's cool that he has powers of punching. That makes sense I guess."
I think maybe I didn't really understand what it was supposed to be until 3rd edition.
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?@kyonshi Problem with Kung Fu (the series) is that they hardly have any proper supernatural stuff in them. I'd say the Destroyer series was probably the bigger influence on the general theme, apart from the name and bits of the set dressing.
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?@kyonshi Satin pyjamas.
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Worse: when monks actually do show up in scenarios set in standard DnD settings, those are almost always some variation on western monks in the style of The Name of the Rose.
Because the location of a monastery or abbey is firmly entrenched in the cultural mindspace of people, and wholly seperate from the concept of the monk class.
2/?@kyonshi I'm I've seen them explicitly as wanderers from the asian analogue continents in earlier stuff. Or the Iron Fist type orphan training in a distant land thing.
Is the 5e version more magic slinging than previous editions? (Wait, did they once have access to spells?)
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@kyonshi Satin pyjamas.
I thought it was more like Chiun and Remo from the Destroyer books.
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?This mashup of styles wasn't even all that unusual for the time: Blackmoor also contained the first published dnd scenario "Temple of the Frog" where chaotic monks of an apocalyptic frog cult guarded a swamp temple, ruled over what was essentially a stranded Starfleet officer in battle armour with energy weapons, masquerading as a high priest.
6/?
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@kyonshi Problem with Kung Fu (the series) is that they hardly have any proper supernatural stuff in them. I'd say the Destroyer series was probably the bigger influence on the general theme, apart from the name and bits of the set dressing.
@mhd yeah, from what I read Dave basically just handed over some campaign notes and had TSR put that into shape (Tim Kask I think)
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I thought it was more like Chiun and Remo from the Destroyer books.
As a total aside, in my own D&D, the Monks were martial artists of the three elements Air (and Numbers)- Fire (and Tme) -Water (and Thoughts) and each had a corresponding style of fighting. I worked out a whole book about them.
And in 15+ years of the campaign, the players never met one.
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This mashup of styles wasn't even all that unusual for the time: Blackmoor also contained the first published dnd scenario "Temple of the Frog" where chaotic monks of an apocalyptic frog cult guarded a swamp temple, ruled over what was essentially a stranded Starfleet officer in battle armour with energy weapons, masquerading as a high priest.
6/?
And ok, here's my problem: why call the class Monk?
Other classes got renamed over time. The Fighting-Man became a Fighter. The magic user was split into multiple different classes. The monk... disappeared from core in ADnD 2nd edition, but came back in 3rd.
And all the time writers bent themselves in pretzels how it's a monastic class that's technically a cleric, but actually more of a fighter, with occasionally some psionics.7/?
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@mhd yeah, from what I read Dave basically just handed over some campaign notes and had TSR put that into shape (Tim Kask I think)
@kyonshi I always thought it follows a similar pattern like the cleric did. So you start with a vampire hunter. Now how do we fit that into a world more medieval than Dracula's Victorian England? Make it a priest. Now, what else could this "cleric" do? Well, let's look at the bible and turn miracles into spells…
And now you're starting with Remo Williams. How do you put them next to knights and barbarians? Make him a shaolin! Well, what else could this 'monk' do? Let's look at some Buddhist legends… Speak with plants and animals?
They should've done this with more pop culture characters, like turn James Bond into the archetype for thieves or assassins.
Although, on second thought, no. Given that Kask is in play here, I'd rather not see how that would've looked back then…
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And ok, here's my problem: why call the class Monk?
Other classes got renamed over time. The Fighting-Man became a Fighter. The magic user was split into multiple different classes. The monk... disappeared from core in ADnD 2nd edition, but came back in 3rd.
And all the time writers bent themselves in pretzels how it's a monastic class that's technically a cleric, but actually more of a fighter, with occasionally some psionics.7/?
BECMI DnD actually DID rename it to "Mystic" but that didn't really stick, and also didn't really manage to get the essence of the class. (The name I think fits better to something like a psion)
9/?
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And ok, here's my problem: why call the class Monk?
Other classes got renamed over time. The Fighting-Man became a Fighter. The magic user was split into multiple different classes. The monk... disappeared from core in ADnD 2nd edition, but came back in 3rd.
And all the time writers bent themselves in pretzels how it's a monastic class that's technically a cleric, but actually more of a fighter, with occasionally some psionics.7/?
@kyonshi super interesting thread, thanks for sharing.
