Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?
@kyonshi When I was 10, buying every DnD book I could find at swap meets and trying to teach myself this game, I was so confused by this class, and went through exactly the thought process you lay out here.
"A monk... Like Friar Tuck, I guess? Okay, that's cool that he has powers of punching. That makes sense I guess."
I think maybe I didn't really understand what it was supposed to be until 3rd edition.
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?@kyonshi Problem with Kung Fu (the series) is that they hardly have any proper supernatural stuff in them. I'd say the Destroyer series was probably the bigger influence on the general theme, apart from the name and bits of the set dressing.
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?@kyonshi Satin pyjamas.
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Worse: when monks actually do show up in scenarios set in standard DnD settings, those are almost always some variation on western monks in the style of The Name of the Rose.
Because the location of a monastery or abbey is firmly entrenched in the cultural mindspace of people, and wholly seperate from the concept of the monk class.
2/?
@kyonshi I'm I've seen them explicitly as wanderers from the asian analogue continents in earlier stuff. Or the Iron Fist type orphan training in a distant land thing.
Is the 5e version more magic slinging than previous editions? (Wait, did they once have access to spells?)
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@kyonshi Satin pyjamas.
I thought it was more like Chiun and Remo from the Destroyer books.
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And one of them was the monk.
Why specifically a monk?
Well, some people might not remember the 1972 hit series Kung Fu starring David Carradine, about a shaolin monk in the wild west. But that was basically it.
That's the reason why it's called a monk, and that's the reason why it's so clearly of a different culture: because the whole inspiration was a shaolin monk travelling in America.
5/?This mashup of styles wasn't even all that unusual for the time: Blackmoor also contained the first published dnd scenario "Temple of the Frog" where chaotic monks of an apocalyptic frog cult guarded a swamp temple, ruled over what was essentially a stranded Starfleet officer in battle armour with energy weapons, masquerading as a high priest.
6/?
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@kyonshi Problem with Kung Fu (the series) is that they hardly have any proper supernatural stuff in them. I'd say the Destroyer series was probably the bigger influence on the general theme, apart from the name and bits of the set dressing.
@mhd yeah, from what I read Dave basically just handed over some campaign notes and had TSR put that into shape (Tim Kask I think)
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I thought it was more like Chiun and Remo from the Destroyer books.
As a total aside, in my own D&D, the Monks were martial artists of the three elements Air (and Numbers)- Fire (and Tme) -Water (and Thoughts) and each had a corresponding style of fighting. I worked out a whole book about them.
And in 15+ years of the campaign, the players never met one.
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This mashup of styles wasn't even all that unusual for the time: Blackmoor also contained the first published dnd scenario "Temple of the Frog" where chaotic monks of an apocalyptic frog cult guarded a swamp temple, ruled over what was essentially a stranded Starfleet officer in battle armour with energy weapons, masquerading as a high priest.
6/?
And ok, here's my problem: why call the class Monk?
Other classes got renamed over time. The Fighting-Man became a Fighter. The magic user was split into multiple different classes. The monk... disappeared from core in ADnD 2nd edition, but came back in 3rd.
And all the time writers bent themselves in pretzels how it's a monastic class that's technically a cleric, but actually more of a fighter, with occasionally some psionics.7/?
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@mhd yeah, from what I read Dave basically just handed over some campaign notes and had TSR put that into shape (Tim Kask I think)
@kyonshi I always thought it follows a similar pattern like the cleric did. So you start with a vampire hunter. Now how do we fit that into a world more medieval than Dracula's Victorian England? Make it a priest. Now, what else could this "cleric" do? Well, let's look at the bible and turn miracles into spells…
And now you're starting with Remo Williams. How do you put them next to knights and barbarians? Make him a shaolin! Well, what else could this 'monk' do? Let's look at some Buddhist legends… Speak with plants and animals?
They should've done this with more pop culture characters, like turn James Bond into the archetype for thieves or assassins.
Although, on second thought, no. Given that Kask is in play here, I'd rather not see how that would've looked back then…
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And ok, here's my problem: why call the class Monk?
Other classes got renamed over time. The Fighting-Man became a Fighter. The magic user was split into multiple different classes. The monk... disappeared from core in ADnD 2nd edition, but came back in 3rd.
And all the time writers bent themselves in pretzels how it's a monastic class that's technically a cleric, but actually more of a fighter, with occasionally some psionics.7/?
BECMI DnD actually DID rename it to "Mystic" but that didn't really stick, and also didn't really manage to get the essence of the class. (The name I think fits better to something like a psion)
9/?
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And ok, here's my problem: why call the class Monk?
Other classes got renamed over time. The Fighting-Man became a Fighter. The magic user was split into multiple different classes. The monk... disappeared from core in ADnD 2nd edition, but came back in 3rd.
And all the time writers bent themselves in pretzels how it's a monastic class that's technically a cleric, but actually more of a fighter, with occasionally some psionics.7/?
@kyonshi super interesting thread, thanks for sharing.
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I thought it was more like Chiun and Remo from the Destroyer books.
@Printdevil I've certainly previously read it was created because someone wanted to play Remo. @Taskerland @kyonshi
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BECMI DnD actually DID rename it to "Mystic" but that didn't really stick, and also didn't really manage to get the essence of the class. (The name I think fits better to something like a psion)
9/?
Right now I keep thinking about calling the class "Ascetic" in my house rules, but I have the feeling that also doesn't capture all it should be.
By now I read a ton of wuxia fantasy though and I feel that might come the closest.
That is besides the phrase "martial artist", which in my opinion also should encompass fighters and clerics. -
BECMI DnD actually DID rename it to "Mystic" but that didn't really stick, and also didn't really manage to get the essence of the class. (The name I think fits better to something like a psion)
9/?
@kyonshi There's the Shadowrun variant "physical adept".
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As a total aside, in my own D&D, the Monks were martial artists of the three elements Air (and Numbers)- Fire (and Tme) -Water (and Thoughts) and each had a corresponding style of fighting. I worked out a whole book about them.
And in 15+ years of the campaign, the players never met one.
@Printdevil @Taskerland it's always like that. I don't even know why I'm putting that much thought into all this.
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@mhd yeah, from what I read Dave basically just handed over some campaign notes and had TSR put that into shape (Tim Kask I think)
@kyonshi Remember that this is the way it has been presented by the Gygax smear campaign against Arneson, when trying to rob Dave of royalties from D&D. Kask was part of that very one sided view of things. It's worth being a bit careful with the wording there.
That being said, it's very typical of how things worked back then to not really include much information about the setting. The Greyhawk book doesn't look like a setting book like we know them now either.
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As a total aside, in my own D&D, the Monks were martial artists of the three elements Air (and Numbers)- Fire (and Tme) -Water (and Thoughts) and each had a corresponding style of fighting. I worked out a whole book about them.
And in 15+ years of the campaign, the players never met one.
@Printdevil The list of things players have missed in your games is sadly extensive @Taskerland @kyonshi
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@kyonshi I always thought it follows a similar pattern like the cleric did. So you start with a vampire hunter. Now how do we fit that into a world more medieval than Dracula's Victorian England? Make it a priest. Now, what else could this "cleric" do? Well, let's look at the bible and turn miracles into spells…
And now you're starting with Remo Williams. How do you put them next to knights and barbarians? Make him a shaolin! Well, what else could this 'monk' do? Let's look at some Buddhist legends… Speak with plants and animals?
They should've done this with more pop culture characters, like turn James Bond into the archetype for thieves or assassins.
Although, on second thought, no. Given that Kask is in play here, I'd rather not see how that would've looked back then…
@mhd assassins as a class were a bit of a misstep as originally written anyway. They were an NPC class that enterprising players could hire, but somehow they got made into a PC class.
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Right now I keep thinking about calling the class "Ascetic" in my house rules, but I have the feeling that also doesn't capture all it should be.
By now I read a ton of wuxia fantasy though and I feel that might come the closest.
That is besides the phrase "martial artist", which in my opinion also should encompass fighters and clerics.@kyonshi I always thought, that "Physical Adept" (Shadowrun) was nice.
