Skip to content
0
  • Home
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • World
  • Users
  • Groups
  • Home
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • World
  • Users
  • Groups
Skins
  • Light
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (Sketchy)
  • No Skin
Collapse

Wandering Adventure Party

  1. Home
  2. Canada
  3. Canada finally reveals the results of its universal basic income experiment

Canada finally reveals the results of its universal basic income experiment

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Canada
177 Posts 72 Posters 120 Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • G greyeyedghost@lemmy.ca

    That has no bearing on what your income from your job is. Pretending this won’t have any impact on the value of jobs to both employers and workers can only be intentionally obtuse. That’s like saying that raising minimum wage will have an equal impact on the hourly wage of all employees.

    A This user is from outside of this forum
    A This user is from outside of this forum
    arkouda@lemmy.ca
    wrote on last edited by
    #57

    That is a false equivalency.

    I am also arguing against UBI, so thank you for adding additional points to my argument.

    Take care.

    G 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • A antler

      Unless I’ve misunderstood, what OP proposed is just increasing the tax rate of the existing system.

      A progressive tax doesn’t result in earning less for working harder; it’s only the marginal income that’s taxed at the higher rate. So a worker who goes from making $50,000 to $60,0000 only pays 15% tax on $10,000 and has a net take home increase of $8,500.

      H This user is from outside of this forum
      H This user is from outside of this forum
      howrar@lemmy.ca
      wrote on last edited by howrar@lemmy.ca
      #58

      I’m talking about various social benefits like welfare or disability that would ideally be replaced by a UBI.

      I hear a lot of stories about this but I don’t remember if they’re Canadian or not; There’s a lot of people who are on disability and are still capable of doing part time work or taking care of their kids for an hour every day for example, but they can’t because if they’re found doing anything, they lose all of their disability benefits. We want a system that allows them to do what they can and be rewarded for contributing to the best of their abilities rather than punishing them for it.

      It’s the same deal with welfare. You need to hit a certain income threshold before your take-home income surpasses what you’d get through welfare. Until then, you’re putting a bunch of energy into working to make less money when you could be lounging at home and making more. This actively discourages people from bettering their lives.

      1 Reply Last reply
      2
      • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

        The idea of UBI is a great one, and I agree with it in principle, but I have yet to run any numbers that make it viable and that is my number one issue.

        I just finished an edit to my original post going into more detail with the numbers. If you have any data that can show how the money can be made so that “you never earn less by working harder” and “everyone gets an even payment” I would be really interested to see it because I have not found anything realistic.

        H This user is from outside of this forum
        H This user is from outside of this forum
        howrar@lemmy.ca
        wrote on last edited by howrar@lemmy.ca
        #59

        I haven’t seen any numbers either for or against it, so I can’t say anything about viability. If anyone knows enough to run the numbers, I’d like to see it. The problem with the calculations you show above is that you assume the value of money doesn’t change when the world around it changes, but it does. Especially so if you make a large change like implementing UBI. We need to think about this in terms of resources. The question you should be asking is whether there’s enough food / housing / labour within the country to fulfill everyone’s basic needs.

        A 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

          That is a false equivalency.

          I am also arguing against UBI, so thank you for adding additional points to my argument.

          Take care.

          G This user is from outside of this forum
          G This user is from outside of this forum
          greyeyedghost@lemmy.ca
          wrote on last edited by
          #60

          Once again, misleading to the point of being intentional. A implies B is not the same as B implies A. Having UBI be guaranteed regardless of income is not the same as income being guaranteed regardless of UBI. So why do you keep insisting that it must? At this point I have to assume intent rather than ignorance.

          1 Reply Last reply
          1
          • H howrar@lemmy.ca

            I haven’t seen any numbers either for or against it, so I can’t say anything about viability. If anyone knows enough to run the numbers, I’d like to see it. The problem with the calculations you show above is that you assume the value of money doesn’t change when the world around it changes, but it does. Especially so if you make a large change like implementing UBI. We need to think about this in terms of resources. The question you should be asking is whether there’s enough food / housing / labour within the country to fulfill everyone’s basic needs.

            A This user is from outside of this forum
            A This user is from outside of this forum
            arkouda@lemmy.ca
            wrote on last edited by
            #61

            I haven’t seen any numbers either for or against it, so I can’t say anything about viability. If anyone knows enough to run the numbers, I’d like to see it. The problem with the calculations you show above is that you assume the value of money doesn’t change when the world around it changes, but it does.

            Especially so if you make a large change like implementing UBI. We need to think about this in terms of resources.

            My calculations don’t assume anything. I literally used age statistics, the Ontario framework for the payout, and net revenue of the Federal Government to demonstrate the cost of UBI. Find me more data, I will give you better calculations.

            Feel free to provide data on your claim about this massive shift you assume I didn’t account for. Preferably which countries have instituted UBI and demonstrated this outcome.

            The question you should be asking is whether there’s enough food / housing / labour within the country to fulfill everyone’s basic needs.

            There is more than enough food from waste alone to feed every single person on the planet, let alone a small country. There is enough housing if we factor in how many empty units, houses, and the like exist because of high cost; What we don’t have we have ways of providing. There is enough labour to go around when Citizens and residents take the available jobs. The reason why we need TFW’s and things of that nature is because citizens and residents refuse to work on farms even though that is constant seasonal work. The labour is there, the willingness doesn’t seem to be.

            I don’t need to ask a question like that, because it has nothing to do with my point that the cost of UBI is excessive, unmanageable, and there are better ways to do things. We already have social safety nets that need improving for people in need. Every single person doesn’t need help, but the social services required by others do.

            H 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • C cyborganism

              It’s a crime to not have universal basic income at this point. People aren’t only unable to afford basic living expenses, but they’re losing jobs to automation and AI already. What are these people supposed to do? Go beg on the streets?

              mintyfresh@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
              mintyfresh@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
              mintyfresh@lemmy.world
              wrote on last edited by
              #62

              Idk, I feel like landlords would just jack prices by whatever the ubi payments are. Ubi is a good idea for sure, but it’s only a piece.

              G gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG 2 Replies Last reply
              28
              • A arkouda@lemmy.ca

                If someone can make hundreds of millions of dollars while being taxed at 80% (Or 2 million net earned per 10 million gross gained at the top of my 5 minute tax structure) they either cheated and should be dealt with appropriately, or deserve it for never sleeping.

                S This user is from outside of this forum
                S This user is from outside of this forum
                showroom7561@lemmy.ca
                wrote on last edited by
                #63

                Cheated, stolen it, and had other people break their bodies to “earn” it.

                We’re about to see trillionaires in our lifetime, which is obscene. Cap wealth so the hoarding can stop.

                A 1 Reply Last reply
                4
                • S showroom7561@lemmy.ca

                  Cheated, stolen it, and had other people break their bodies to “earn” it.

                  We’re about to see trillionaires in our lifetime, which is obscene. Cap wealth so the hoarding can stop.

                  A This user is from outside of this forum
                  A This user is from outside of this forum
                  arkouda@lemmy.ca
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #64

                  I disagree with the extreme measure, posit that a less extreme measure would work just as well or better, and await any kind of data and proper analysis to support your point of view like I have already done.

                  I will not continue the conversation otherwise, so take care of yourself if you choose to respond differently.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • mintyfresh@lemmy.worldM mintyfresh@lemmy.world

                    Idk, I feel like landlords would just jack prices by whatever the ubi payments are. Ubi is a good idea for sure, but it’s only a piece.

                    G This user is from outside of this forum
                    G This user is from outside of this forum
                    garbagebagel@lemmy.world
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #65

                    Controlled rent would also be fantastic and has worked in economically diffuclt times like COVID. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work again during the recession we are spiralling towards.

                    S gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG 2 Replies Last reply
                    35
                    • U ulrich_the_old@lemmy.ca

                      Every study of UBI has been overwhelmingly positive also every study of UBI has ended without enacting UBI. They will continue to study it until they get the answer they want.

                      B This user is from outside of this forum
                      B This user is from outside of this forum
                      brickhead92@lemmy.world
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #66

                      Until it is peer reviewed and points out the glaring errors, which will promptly be ignored.

                      F 1 Reply Last reply
                      16
                      • C cobrachicken3000@lemmy.ca

                        TL;DR - The document discusses the results of a universal basic income (UBI) trial in Canada, which was conducted in Southern Ontario between 2017 and 2019. The trial, which was cancelled prematurely, showed that participants experienced improvements in mental health, housing stability, and social relationships, as well as reduced visits to hospitals and doctors. The UBI payments, which were designed to reduce poverty and encourage work, were found to have a positive impact on participants’ physical and mental well-being, with many reporting decreased use of alcohol and tobacco. The trial also dispelled concerns that UBI would lead to unemployment, with only 17% of participants leaving their jobs and nearly half of those who stopped working returning to school or university to up-skill. The report suggests that UBI could be a useful public health strategy and that the safety net provided by the UBI project helped participants find better jobs with higher wages and improved working conditions. [AI Summary]

                        𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠C This user is from outside of this forum
                        𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠C This user is from outside of this forum
                        𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #67

                        To be fair, if 8% exits the labour market that would have a pretty severe economic effect, no?

                        L 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • G garbagebagel@lemmy.world

                          Controlled rent would also be fantastic and has worked in economically diffuclt times like COVID. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work again during the recession we are spiralling towards.

                          S This user is from outside of this forum
                          S This user is from outside of this forum
                          stray@pawb.social
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #68

                          Controlled rent is better than uncontrolled rent, but it suffers from the same problems as minimum wage. And why should landlords even exist? I’m not convinced private rentals should be legal at all. If you’re not using a property for personal use or a place of business, why shouldn’t it be seized and auctioned or rented publicly?

                          S L 2 Replies Last reply
                          16
                          • mintiefreshM mintiefresh
                            This post did not contain any content.
                            C This user is from outside of this forum
                            C This user is from outside of this forum
                            CanadaRocks
                            wrote on last edited by canadarocks@piefed.ca
                            #69

                            Who said anything about ‘fuck you I got mine?’

                            First of all Canada already has a TON of social supports for anyone who is in need. We have Employment Insurance if you lose your job. We have Old Age Security and Canada Pension Plan for seniors. We have Child Tax Credits for parents and especially single parents. We have the GST credit to give back taxes to low income earners. We have the Canada Workers Benefit. We have the Canada Disability Benefit. We have the Assured Income for Severely Handicapped. We have disability pensions. We have Universal Pharmacare for prescription drugs. We have housing benefits/social housing programs. We have the Canadian Dental Benefit. We have student aid. There are free food banks in every city. And there are emergency funds available for things like rent/damage deposits on an emergency basis from every province through various community agencies, charities, and non-profit organizations.

                            So WHY do we need UBI on top of all that? If you need help in Canada, you CAN find it. Its already here.

                            Source: I founded a charity for street kids in one of our major cities thats been operating for 33 years. There is a TON of support out there. The fact is that a LOT of the people on the street know how to use and abuse the system and they dont WANT to get out of it because its what they grew up in and what they are accustomed to. I speak from years of experience.

                            blackmist@feddit.ukB S gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG A rivalarrival@lemmy.todayR 5 Replies Last reply
                            3
                            • mintiefreshM mintiefresh
                              This post did not contain any content.
                              C This user is from outside of this forum
                              C This user is from outside of this forum
                              CanadaRocks
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #70

                              You’re looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.

                              Z H E B Dharma Curious (he/him)D 6 Replies Last reply
                              5
                              • cilethesane@lemmy.caC cilethesane@lemmy.ca

                                Because the only people who support it are students and academics and think tanks.

                                I own my own home, I support my wife with my single income, and we have enough savings that recently being unemployed for several months did not cause any financial hardships.

                                I support UBI even though I personally would not benefit from it, and I should be taxed more in order to help people who are struggling.

                                Not everyone operates under “fuck you I got mine”.

                                M This user is from outside of this forum
                                M This user is from outside of this forum
                                PastafARRian
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #71

                                Agreed and let me say, I’m probably privileged enough to be seriously affected by tax increases if UBI was instituted. However, as a person with average empathy, do you think I’d prefer being slightly less privileged, or walking around and seeing everyone miserable and stressed the hell out all the time? I’m always amazed that there is any difference of opinion, especially when most Republicans would stand to gain at the expense of people like me. 🤷

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                3
                                • C CanadaRocks

                                  You’re looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.

                                  Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                  zacpod@lemmy.world
                                  wrote on last edited by zacpod@lemmy.world
                                  #72

                                  Show your work, please. I’m pretty sure it’s closer to 25-30%.

                                  Edit: confirmed. I did the math. It’s closer to 35% for most people. Including income tax, sales tax, and property tax.

                                  L 1 Reply Last reply
                                  10
                                  • C CanadaRocks

                                    Who said anything about ‘fuck you I got mine?’

                                    First of all Canada already has a TON of social supports for anyone who is in need. We have Employment Insurance if you lose your job. We have Old Age Security and Canada Pension Plan for seniors. We have Child Tax Credits for parents and especially single parents. We have the GST credit to give back taxes to low income earners. We have the Canada Workers Benefit. We have the Canada Disability Benefit. We have the Assured Income for Severely Handicapped. We have disability pensions. We have Universal Pharmacare for prescription drugs. We have housing benefits/social housing programs. We have the Canadian Dental Benefit. We have student aid. There are free food banks in every city. And there are emergency funds available for things like rent/damage deposits on an emergency basis from every province through various community agencies, charities, and non-profit organizations.

                                    So WHY do we need UBI on top of all that? If you need help in Canada, you CAN find it. Its already here.

                                    Source: I founded a charity for street kids in one of our major cities thats been operating for 33 years. There is a TON of support out there. The fact is that a LOT of the people on the street know how to use and abuse the system and they dont WANT to get out of it because its what they grew up in and what they are accustomed to. I speak from years of experience.

                                    blackmist@feddit.ukB This user is from outside of this forum
                                    blackmist@feddit.ukB This user is from outside of this forum
                                    blackmist@feddit.uk
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #73

                                    You wouldn’t get UBI “on top of all that”.

                                    You’d get it instead of all that.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    15
                                    • C CanadaRocks

                                      You’re looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.

                                      H This user is from outside of this forum
                                      H This user is from outside of this forum
                                      healthetank@lemmy.ca
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #74

                                      Assuming this was supposed to reply to my response (you’re just responding directly to the main post FYI).

                                      Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes

                                      I haven’t ever heard a number this big. Where did you get this from, and how does it compare to other countries?

                                      I don’t disagree - we’re taxed more than the US, but that comes with things like single-payer healthcare and higher regulatory enforcement. GST, for example, isn’t something collected in the US meaning they only have the effective PST component of our sales tax, which varies widely by municipality to municipality, but is quite a bit less.

                                      E 1 Reply Last reply
                                      2
                                      • 𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠C 𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠

                                        To be fair, if 8% exits the labour market that would have a pretty severe economic effect, no?

                                        L This user is from outside of this forum
                                        L This user is from outside of this forum
                                        luvs2spuj@lemmy.world
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #75

                                        I imagine it would improve wages as employers would need to properly incentivise people to return to those jobs. Probably why UBI hasn’t made it past a trial yet.

                                        𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠C 1 Reply Last reply
                                        7
                                        • C CanadaRocks

                                          You’re looking at one tax. If you look at ALL Canadian taxes, income tax, provincial taxes, sales tax, import taxes, fuel taxes, property taxes, health services taxes, business taxes Canadians actually pay about HALF of their gross income in taxes. We are f’n taxed to death in Canada.

                                          E This user is from outside of this forum
                                          E This user is from outside of this forum
                                          englishgrinn@lemmy.ca
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #76

                                          This is an untrue statistic often trotted out by the Conservative Frasier Institute. Canadians think we’re taxed far more than we are, because public opinion has been manipulated to believe so. Average Canadian pays about one third of income to taxes - creeping up as you move up taxes brackets

                                          remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR 1 Reply Last reply
                                          33

                                          Reply
                                          • Reply as topic
                                          Log in to reply
                                          • Oldest to Newest
                                          • Newest to Oldest
                                          • Most Votes


                                          • Login

                                          • Login or register to search.
                                          Powered by NodeBB Contributors
                                          • First post
                                            Last post