Based Vampire the Masquerade
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As anyone who has ever tried to hold a plutocrat accountable in court can tell you, their equality under the law is more theoretical than how the world really works.
That’s not the point being made by the legal distinction. The point is not that a plutocracy is vulnerable to the rule of law while an aristocracy is not - the question of the strength of rule of law is separate from the question of aristocracy or plutocracy. The point is that the basis of aristocratic power comes (in part) from a position of extraordinary legal privilege, not simply being able to escape consequences for crimes.
The cults of personality, the careful reputational management, the nepotism and cronyism, dynastic rule and insularity, it’s all there, it’s just got a different window dressing.
What you’re complaining about ere can be applied to any elite.
The point is that the basis of aristocratic power comes (in part) from a position of extraordinary legal privilege, not simply being able to escape consequences for crimes.
We’re so very close but we’re not quite getting that last point. What I’m saying is it’s a distinction with very little meaningful difference. It’s interesting from an academic point of view, but that’s it. How they rationalize their privilege and sell their legitimacy to people makes no difference.
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True, but in fairness I tried to discuss utilitarianism with my cat over dinner and his response was trying to steal food off my plate.
Which in hindsight could have actually been a rather profound commentary on the pursuit of happiness in a utilitarian framework.
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The point is that the basis of aristocratic power comes (in part) from a position of extraordinary legal privilege, not simply being able to escape consequences for crimes.
We’re so very close but we’re not quite getting that last point. What I’m saying is it’s a distinction with very little meaningful difference. It’s interesting from an academic point of view, but that’s it. How they rationalize their privilege and sell their legitimacy to people makes no difference.
It’s more than just academic. The question is not whether aristocracy or plutocracy acts in a fundamentally better or worse way than the other, which you seem to be focused on, but whether they act in a different way from the other, which they very much do. The basis of their power comes from different roots, and because of that, they have different interests, different goals, different avenues of action, different preferences in compromise with wider society. Failing to understand that will result in failing to understand the reasoning for political maneuvering by one or the other.
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On the one hand, good on them for trying a “nazi punks fuck off” type move.
On the other hand, a blood sucking aristocracy that feeds off the “lesser people” beneath them as the protagonists… that’s nearly the definition of fascism?
that’s nearly the definition of fascism?
Yes, which is why they need to put this kind of disclaimer in their handbook — lest they end up with chuds like the Warhammer franchise. Those chuds being the ones that don’t understand that the Imperium is really bad.
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I mean, they’re fictional, they can be whatever you want them to be
But White Wolf VtM vampires aren’t.
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It’s more than just academic. The question is not whether aristocracy or plutocracy acts in a fundamentally better or worse way than the other, which you seem to be focused on, but whether they act in a different way from the other, which they very much do. The basis of their power comes from different roots, and because of that, they have different interests, different goals, different avenues of action, different preferences in compromise with wider society. Failing to understand that will result in failing to understand the reasoning for political maneuvering by one or the other.
they act in a different way from the other, which they very much do. The basis of their power comes from different roots, and because of that, they have different interests, different goals, different avenues of action, different preferences in compromise with wider society.
I firmly disagree. There is no meaningful difference in motivation or expected outcome. The behaviour is functionally identical. In neither case is there any commitment to compromise with society, both Aristocracy and Plutocracy leverage economic factors to control and contain the wider community, to arbitrary and capricious ends; frequently little more than the further consolidation of power. The terminology is different, it sounds different, but it does not behave different in any meaningful way. Any social contract is entirely grounded in what we choose to demand as a society, not intrinsic to the flavour of elite class.
It’s the same motive, the same tools, and the same outcome, just re-branded and with a fresh coat of paint. Plutocracy in this era leverages scientific and evidence based psychological conditioning, social control, and new communication mediums to play on a variety of fundamental cognitive biases and limitations instead of leveraging religion alone as the primary means of containment of the governed, nothing more. As I said, it’s Aristocracy with a business degree. If you want to get specific it’s Aristocracy with a business degree and a marketing team instead of just the clergy.
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True, but in fairness I tried to discuss utilitarianism with my cat over dinner and his response was trying to steal food off my plate.
Which in hindsight could have actually been a rather profound commentary on the pursuit of happiness in a utilitarian framework.
You can come discuss utilitarianism with the good creatures at !transspecies@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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I’m not offended, if that’s what you mean. I’m just curious what it means because I haven’t seen it before and can only guess.
Oh I just made a spelling mistake and was trying it into a dumb joke
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Yes and no. Aristocracy can exist independent from fascism, and should be considered entirely separately. However, if they can’t maintain power with a purely conservative/reactionary coalition, aristocrats will almost always side with fascists over liberals, much less socialists. As such, in the modern day, aristocracies are aligned with fascists, despite fascism erasing aristocracy as it ‘succeeds’ and aristocrats being generally aware that fascists do not have their aristocratic interests in mind.
Oh absolutely, it’s just that the modern day aristocrats of capitalism are so short sighted they can’t see past their own nose.
They don’t know that their own wealth is meaningless since rule of law is not theirs, and no one will care if they get epstiened like many Russian oligarchs.
“First they came” and all that
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*Acided.
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Good on them for stating it upfront though. (The mention of “alt-right” indicates a more recent version?).
Back in the 90’s/early 00’s it definitely attracted people both left and right winged.
However from my personal experience right wingers was more prevalent in wargaming compared to rpg’s. (Which really sucked because there you were enjoying a nice back n forth about Warhammer and then out comes the racist nazi talk…)
Games Workshop did good by making a pretty strong statement a while ago. But I’m afraid it’ll always be a thing.
the problem is that they have no media literacy (well, barely any literacy at all) so the satirical nature of Warhammer goes far over their head and they instead unironically think the politics in the game are based.
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the problem is that they have no media literacy (well, barely any literacy at all) so the satirical nature of Warhammer goes far over their head and they instead unironically think the politics in the game are based.
they don’t realize the nazi shit in these games is supposed to be grimdark authoritarian hellscape dystopias, not utopias…
but they can take grimdark authoritarian hellscapes as long as they’re run by nazis.
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Oh absolutely, it’s just that the modern day aristocrats of capitalism are so short sighted they can’t see past their own nose.
They don’t know that their own wealth is meaningless since rule of law is not theirs, and no one will care if they get epstiened like many Russian oligarchs.
“First they came” and all that
There is a difference between aristocracy and oligarchy. Aristocracy is under the thumb of the monarch, oligarchy isn’t.
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There is a difference between aristocracy and oligarchy. Aristocracy is under the thumb of the monarch, oligarchy isn’t.
On the Wikipedia page, it states that oligarchy is “Aristocracy’s corrupt counterpart”.
At the end of the day there is no way an aristocracy doesn’t become corrupt, so the result is just a label
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Good on them for stating it upfront though. (The mention of “alt-right” indicates a more recent version?).
Back in the 90’s/early 00’s it definitely attracted people both left and right winged.
However from my personal experience right wingers was more prevalent in wargaming compared to rpg’s. (Which really sucked because there you were enjoying a nice back n forth about Warhammer and then out comes the racist nazi talk…)
Games Workshop did good by making a pretty strong statement a while ago. But I’m afraid it’ll always be a thing.
I was leery of VtM for a long time because I’d always thought of the mythology of vampires generally to be, well, in line with certain kinds of violent sexual acts that I viscerally did not want to roleplay.
Finally decided to read the lore. Honestly? The setting is genuinely far more complex than I had given it credit for. Anarchs forever!
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On the one hand, good on them for trying a “nazi punks fuck off” type move.
On the other hand, a blood sucking aristocracy that feeds off the “lesser people” beneath them as the protagonists… that’s nearly the definition of fascism?
Being a novice to the lore, I’d say anyone who unironically thinks the Camarilla are right is someone I would punch.
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I mean, they’re fictional, they can be whatever you want them to be
they can be whatever you want them to be
Except for a neo-nazi.
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they don’t realize the nazi shit in these games is supposed to be grimdark authoritarian hellscape dystopias, not utopias…
but they can take grimdark authoritarian hellscapes as long as they’re run by nazis.
They think they’d be space marines or inquisitors in that world. You know one of the one-in-a-trillion kinda folks.
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They think they’d be space marines or inquisitors in that world. You know one of the one-in-a-trillion kinda folks.
Welcome to Flashlight Brigade Conscription! If you face the enemy, you will die. If you refuse to face the enemy, the nearest Commisar will execute you for treason. Same if you try to run. If you want to live, maybe hope for whichever enemy to adopt you as a pet, but that’s less preferable than death in almost all cases.
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they don’t realize the nazi shit in these games is supposed to be grimdark authoritarian hellscape dystopias, not utopias…
but they can take grimdark authoritarian hellscapes as long as they’re run by nazis.
