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A lesson so many need to learn

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Pathfinder
rpgmemes
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  • KichaeK Kichae

    alexanderthedead@lemmy.world said in A lesson so many need to learn:

    Anyone who wants to make the claim that the system is bad will have bang their subjective arguments against the steel wall that is its popularity.

    Yes, but this is a thing that people want to do. They want to try and dent that popularity, and they want to shift some of it towards their own preferences. It doesn’t matter that it’s a subjective opinion on what is better or what is bad, it doesn’t feel subjective to the person interjecting.

    They believe their preferred game is better, they probably have had this discussion numerous times with people who have ignored them or chewed them out for trying to evangelize, and they are infinitely frustrated that others won’t see the light.

    People who leave popular things behind for niche things often just have this habit of having to bury the thing they left behind. It can’t be good. The new thing is better, but the new thing is better both because it is better, and also because the old thing was just objectively bad.

    People do this with a lot of things. TV shows, ice cream flavours, toys they used to play with as kids. There’s a sense of shame attached to having liked the old thing, not just a sense of joy of having found the new one. It’s one of the reasons the people they evangelize to get so defensive: They can sense that they are being judged.

    A This user is from outside of this forum
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    alexanderthedead@lemmy.world
    wrote last edited by
    #139

    Your formatting broke btw

    KichaeK 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • 5 5too@lemmy.world

      Ironsworn was my first exposure to a fiction-first game! I didn’t really gel with the setting, but still really like the mechanics. Ended up backing Starforged (and later Sundered Isles), that seems like a much better fit for me!

      M This user is from outside of this forum
      M This user is from outside of this forum
      morgoth_bauglir@lemmy.world
      wrote last edited by
      #140

      Ours as well! It’s taking some getting used to, but we’re having a blast! I’ve been considering running my own solo campaign with star forged, hopefully I can get that started soon

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • StametsS Stamets
        This post did not contain any content.
        phase@lemmy.8th.worldP This user is from outside of this forum
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        phase@lemmy.8th.world
        wrote last edited by
        #141

        Stop replacing TTRPG by DnD and I would be fine 😜

        1 Reply Last reply
        5
        • southsamuraiS southsamurai

          You sound like me!

          We have a household rule: don’t talk to south until he’s awake. How can you tell he’s awake? Has he been moving for at least an hour? If yes, then he may be awake, but there’s no promises. If not, then treat him like you would a manbearpig freshly out of hibernation.

          The grunts and croaks that pass as communication from me that first bit are a passable caveman shtick.

          StametsS This user is from outside of this forum
          StametsS This user is from outside of this forum
          Stamets
          wrote last edited by
          #142

          Not too dissimilar here. Roommate has learned to avoid me at all costs until my tone of voice doesn’t sound like a serial killer. I thought a cpap machine would help with that part of my sleep habits too. It did not.

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • F frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone

            If anything, I feel like Pf2e is more streamlined than DnD5e overall. At the very least, everything is in just one book.

            The way critical success/fail works is better, too. Rolling a nat 20 doesn’t automatically make an unskilled character super good at something, and rolling a nat 1 doesn’t make a super skilled character fumble it completely.

            K This user is from outside of this forum
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            kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            wrote last edited by
            #143

            Well there are no crits on checks in 5e, so a nat 20 +0 is no different from a nat 6 +14. And someone with a +14 can’t fail a check with a DC of 15 or lower.

            Having Degrees of Success built into the system in PF2 is really neat though. And seems like something DnD could easily incorporate if Wizards had any vision.

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU underpantsweevil@lemmy.world

              I think part of the problem is that 5e is so pervasive and baked into the “people who play TTRPGs” population that you need to sell them on why 5e isn’t good before you can get them to consider why your alternative is good.

              Frankly, I’m a White Wolf die-hard. I love Exalted. I love Werewolf. I love Mage. I tolerate Vampire. But as soon as I show someone a set of d10s and try to talk them out of the idea of “Leveling” they get scared and run back to the system they’re familiar with. I also have a special place in my heart for Rollmaster/Hackmaster/Palladium and the endless reams of % charts for every conceivable thing. And then there’s Mechwarrior… who doesn’t love DMing a game where each model on the board has to track it’s heat exhaust per round? But by god! The setting is so fucking cool! (Yes, I know about Lancer).

              I will freely admit that these systems aren’t necessarily “better” than 5e (or the d20 super-system generally speaking). But they all have their own charms. The trick is that selling some fresh new face on that glorious story climax in which three different Traditions of Magi harmonize their foci and thereby metaphorically harmonize fundamental concepts of society is hard to do on its face. By contrast, complaining about the generic grind of a dice-rolling dungeon crawl is pretty straightforward and easy.

              K This user is from outside of this forum
              K This user is from outside of this forum
              kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              wrote last edited by
              #144

              If you lead with “Thing you like is actually bad”, their immediate response will be to disagree with you and start defending the thing they like. And if you want someone to listen to your arguments, rather than just try to poke holes in them, you must avoid putting them on the defensive.

              To get through to people, find common ground and build off that. “If you like FEATURE in GAME, you’ll probably love SIMILAR FEATURE in OTHER GAME because…” is something that’s actually going to get someone interested, rather than start a pointless argument 🙂

              underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU 1 Reply Last reply
              1
              • StametsS Stamets
                This post did not contain any content.
                I Cast FistI This user is from outside of this forum
                I Cast FistI This user is from outside of this forum
                I Cast Fist
                wrote last edited by
                #145

                I personally prefer Warhammer Fantasy (either 2e or 4e), I think it contrasts to DnD like Dark Souls to Diablo. Armor is damage reduction instead of damage avoidance, everyone has access to a number of combat maneuvers, magic is limited and dangerous, every combat is dangerous and healing is limited.

                Brave Little Hitachi WandG 1 Reply Last reply
                5
                • J jjjalljs@ttrpg.network

                  try to talk them out of the idea of “Leveling” they get scared and run back to the system they’re familiar with.

                  I still think about the time in college I tried to get a D&D friend to consider Mage. I was telling him about how you can just do magic, and the real limitation is paradox and hubris. Like, it’s often not about ‘can you?’ but rather “should you?”

                  He couldn’t get over “you can just cast whatever you want? Fireballs every turn?”

                  “Yes, but that’s probably going to make a lot of paradox, and probably isn’t the best way to solve your problem”

                  “Sounds broken,” he said, and lost interest.

                  I Cast FistI This user is from outside of this forum
                  I Cast FistI This user is from outside of this forum
                  I Cast Fist
                  wrote last edited by
                  #146

                  The main problem with magic in Mage is that you need a LOT of rule knowledge to even know what the fuck you can cast, especially if you mix different spheres. Your friend might’ve dodged a bullet, but for the wrong reason 😆

                  J 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • A archpawn@lemmy.world

                    Mutants and Masterminds is kind of interesting. I like how it’s designed so character creation is entirely point buy. There’s no classes. No spells. You pay for skills and abilities directly. There’s basic powers, and modifiers you can use to make them more interesting. It’s also geared towards balance as opposed to simulation, which means you can make whatever type of character you want instead of having to stick with what’s optimal.

                    Unfortunately, it’s not well-done. For example, they frequently forget the game uses a log scale and cut numbers in half. Someone with a Dodge rank of -2 who is Vulnerable has their active defenses halved, which brings their Dodge rank up to -1. Equipment is 3 to 4 times cheaper than Devices, with the only differences being flavor (Equipment is something a normal person can get) and a different method of calculating Toughness that very often makes Equipment stronger. I ended up making a list of house rules trying to fix all of them (and admittedly including a few alternate rules that aren’t clearly better or worse) that’s so long that it would probably be easier to make a new RPG.

                    I don’t suppose I can get any advice on something I would like? My requirements are:

                    1. A point buy system that lets you make any character you want.
                    2. Costs are based on making characters balanced, and not how literally expensive a piece of equipment would be and that sort of thing.
                    3. Must be balanced as far as reasonably possible without massive flaws like M&M.
                    4. I’d really like having a wide variety of characters you can make and things you can do. Make it so you can just play a Swarm, or a character of any size class, or anything else you can think of.

                    EDIT:

                    1. Must be free. I’m not going to pay $20 for a system I don’t even know I’ll like. And honestly, I’m too cheap to pay for anything I don’t really need.
                    I Cast FistI This user is from outside of this forum
                    I Cast FistI This user is from outside of this forum
                    I Cast Fist
                    wrote last edited by
                    #147

                    Maybe try GURPS + Supers suplement?

                    A 1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • I Cast FistI I Cast Fist

                      The main problem with magic in Mage is that you need a LOT of rule knowledge to even know what the fuck you can cast, especially if you mix different spheres. Your friend might’ve dodged a bullet, but for the wrong reason 😆

                      J This user is from outside of this forum
                      J This user is from outside of this forum
                      jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
                      wrote last edited by
                      #148

                      I think Mage: The Awakening 2nd edition was a cleaner version of the game, but yeah no version is something you can just phone in.

                      I ran a game of it a year or so back, and one player just refused to read the book in any detail. She was always frustrated by not knowing what she could do, or how to do it effectively.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      1
                      • K kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                        If you lead with “Thing you like is actually bad”, their immediate response will be to disagree with you and start defending the thing they like. And if you want someone to listen to your arguments, rather than just try to poke holes in them, you must avoid putting them on the defensive.

                        To get through to people, find common ground and build off that. “If you like FEATURE in GAME, you’ll probably love SIMILAR FEATURE in OTHER GAME because…” is something that’s actually going to get someone interested, rather than start a pointless argument 🙂

                        underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
                        underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
                        underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
                        wrote last edited by
                        #149

                        If you lead with “Thing you like is actually bad”

                        Why would you assume the critiques are of things they like? 5e has plenty of widely recognized flaws.

                        To get through to people, find common ground and build off that.

                        Often, simply catering to people’s priors means never leaving their comfort zone.

                        KichaeK K 2 Replies Last reply
                        0
                        • I Cast FistI I Cast Fist

                          I personally prefer Warhammer Fantasy (either 2e or 4e), I think it contrasts to DnD like Dark Souls to Diablo. Armor is damage reduction instead of damage avoidance, everyone has access to a number of combat maneuvers, magic is limited and dangerous, every combat is dangerous and healing is limited.

                          Brave Little Hitachi WandG This user is from outside of this forum
                          Brave Little Hitachi WandG This user is from outside of this forum
                          Brave Little Hitachi Wand
                          wrote last edited by
                          #150

                          I played that a few times. I love the early game lethality and gritty realism. I’ve heard Mörk Borg (sp?) is carrying that torch nowadays, have been meaning to try it.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          1
                          • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU underpantsweevil@lemmy.world

                            If you lead with “Thing you like is actually bad”

                            Why would you assume the critiques are of things they like? 5e has plenty of widely recognized flaws.

                            To get through to people, find common ground and build off that.

                            Often, simply catering to people’s priors means never leaving their comfort zone.

                            KichaeK Online
                            KichaeK Online
                            Kichae
                            Forum Master
                            wrote last edited by
                            #151

                            Sute, but the thing they like is “D&D”, and D&D isn’t just a game anymore, it’s an identity signifier. Pointing people to other games before establishing yourself as firmly not attacking their identity is going to trigger a fight.

                            underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • A alexanderthedead@lemmy.world

                              Your formatting broke btw

                              KichaeK Online
                              KichaeK Online
                              Kichae
                              Forum Master
                              wrote last edited by
                              #152

                              Aye. NodeBB and Lemmy have a couple of rough edges here and there.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • A archpawn@lemmy.world

                                Mutants and Masterminds is kind of interesting. I like how it’s designed so character creation is entirely point buy. There’s no classes. No spells. You pay for skills and abilities directly. There’s basic powers, and modifiers you can use to make them more interesting. It’s also geared towards balance as opposed to simulation, which means you can make whatever type of character you want instead of having to stick with what’s optimal.

                                Unfortunately, it’s not well-done. For example, they frequently forget the game uses a log scale and cut numbers in half. Someone with a Dodge rank of -2 who is Vulnerable has their active defenses halved, which brings their Dodge rank up to -1. Equipment is 3 to 4 times cheaper than Devices, with the only differences being flavor (Equipment is something a normal person can get) and a different method of calculating Toughness that very often makes Equipment stronger. I ended up making a list of house rules trying to fix all of them (and admittedly including a few alternate rules that aren’t clearly better or worse) that’s so long that it would probably be easier to make a new RPG.

                                I don’t suppose I can get any advice on something I would like? My requirements are:

                                1. A point buy system that lets you make any character you want.
                                2. Costs are based on making characters balanced, and not how literally expensive a piece of equipment would be and that sort of thing.
                                3. Must be balanced as far as reasonably possible without massive flaws like M&M.
                                4. I’d really like having a wide variety of characters you can make and things you can do. Make it so you can just play a Swarm, or a character of any size class, or anything else you can think of.

                                EDIT:

                                1. Must be free. I’m not going to pay $20 for a system I don’t even know I’ll like. And honestly, I’m too cheap to pay for anything I don’t really need.
                                Brave Little Hitachi WandG This user is from outside of this forum
                                Brave Little Hitachi WandG This user is from outside of this forum
                                Brave Little Hitachi Wand
                                wrote last edited by
                                #153

                                Oooh, have you heard of Wild Talents? It has everything on your wishlist. It’s possible to create overpowered abilities, but you’d have to set out to specifically do that - and the GM would then have to say yes to it. If you’re trying to be OP in a sneaky way, it’s just not gonna happen.

                                A 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • KichaeK Kichae

                                  Sute, but the thing they like is “D&D”, and D&D isn’t just a game anymore, it’s an identity signifier. Pointing people to other games before establishing yourself as firmly not attacking their identity is going to trigger a fight.

                                  underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
                                  underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
                                  underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #154

                                  D&D isn’t just a game anymore, it’s an identity signifier

                                  Which is part of the problem. Like talking to someone who only drinks Coca-Cola about trying a new bag of tea you brought over.

                                  attacking their identity

                                  If you’ve wedded yourself so deeply to the brand that you feel attacked whenever someone levels a critique, you’re probably not mature enough to be at my table.

                                  KichaeK 1 Reply Last reply
                                  1
                                  • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU underpantsweevil@lemmy.world

                                    D&D isn’t just a game anymore, it’s an identity signifier

                                    Which is part of the problem. Like talking to someone who only drinks Coca-Cola about trying a new bag of tea you brought over.

                                    attacking their identity

                                    If you’ve wedded yourself so deeply to the brand that you feel attacked whenever someone levels a critique, you’re probably not mature enough to be at my table.

                                    KichaeK Online
                                    KichaeK Online
                                    Kichae
                                    Forum Master
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #155

                                    Ok, but these discussions aren’t happening at you’re table. “Well, fuck them then” isn’t exactly helpful.

                                    underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • KichaeK Kichae

                                      Ok, but these discussions aren’t happening at you’re table. “Well, fuck them then” isn’t exactly helpful.

                                      underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
                                      underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
                                      underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
                                      wrote last edited by underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
                                      #156

                                      “Well, fuck them then”

                                      Isn’t what I said. But if that’s what you’ve heard, you’re illustrating my point.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • S semester3383@lemmy.world

                                        I never had a chance to try Earthdawn, but it looked like a lot of fun.

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                                        E This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Enkrod
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #157

                                        Try 4th Edition, I am having sooooo much fun! But if you want Spells to feel like more than just different flavors of damage/buffs/debuffs, I would recommend the addon “Magic - Deeper Secrets” that brings back a whole lot of the extremely creative spells from 2nd Edition.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • HossenfefferH Hossenfeffer

                                          Runequest

                                          No character classes: everyone can fight, everyone gets magic, everyone worships a god (with a few exceptions), and your character gets better at stuff they do or stuff they get training in. The closest there is to a character class is the choice of god your character worships (which dictates which Rune spells your character might have) but there is plenty of leeway to play very different worshippers of the same god.

                                          No levels: your character gets better at stuff they do or stuff they get training in. As they progress in their god’s cult they also get access to more Rune spells.

                                          Intuitive percentile ‘roll under’ system: an absolute newbie who’s never played any RPG before can look at their character sheet and understand how good their character is at their skills: “I only have 15% in Sneak, but a 90% Sword skill - reckon I’m going in swinging!'”

                                          Hit locations: fights are very deadly and wounds matter, “Oh dear, my left leg’s come off!”

                                          Passions and Runes: these help guide characterisation,and can also boost relevant skill rolls in a role-playing driven way, e.g invoking your Love Family passion to try and augment your shield skill while defending your mother from a marauding broo.

                                          Meaningful religions: your character’s choice of deity and cult provides direction, flavour, and appropriate magic. Especially cool when characters get beefy enough to start engaging in heroquesting - part ceremonial ritual, part literal recreation of some story from the god time.

                                          No alignment: your character’s behaviour can be modified by their passions, eg “Love family” or “Hate trolls”, and possibly by the requirements of whatever god you worship, but otherwise is yours to play as you see fit in the moment without wondering if you’re being sufficiently chaotic neutral.

                                          Characters are embedded in their family, their culture, and the cult of the god they worship: the game encourages connections to home, kith, kin, and cult making them more meaningful in game and, in the process, giving additional background elements to take the edge off murder hoboism (though if that’s what the group really wants then that’s a path they can go down (see MGF, next)).

                                          YGMV & MGF: Greg Stafford, who created Glorantha, the world in which Runequest is set, was fond of two sayings. The first is “Your Glorantha May Vary”. It is a fundamental expectation, upheld by Chaosium, that while they publish the ‘canonical’ version of Glorantha any and every GM has the right to mess with it for the games they run. Find the existence of feathered humanoids with the heads, bills, and webbed feet of ducks to be too ridiculous for your game table? Then excise them from the game with Greg’s blessing! The second is the only rule that trumps YGMV, and that is that the GM should always strive for “Maximum Game Fun”.

                                          While we’re on the subject of Glorantha, the world of Glorantha! It’s large and complex and very well developed in some areas (notably Dragon Pass and Prax) but with plenty of space for a GM to insert their own creations. It is, without doubt, one of the contenders for best RPG setting of all time.

                                          To continue on the subject of Glorantha, there is insanely deep and satisfying lore if you want to go full nerdgasm on it. But you can play and enjoy the game with a sliver-thin veneer of knowledge: “I’m playing a warrior who worships Humakt, the uncompromising god of honour and Death.” The RQ starter set contains everything you need to get a real taste for the game (ie minimal lore) and is great value for money since it’s what Chaosium hope will draw people in.

                                          Ducks: ducks are cool and not to be under-estimated.

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                                          Ahdok
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #158

                                          I just finished playing through a short Runequest campaign, and it’s certainly an interesting system and setting. It’s extremely “oldschool” in feel (probably stemming from the fact that it’s been around for forever.)

                                          The big struggle with Runequest and Glorantha is that there’s just so MUCH of it, and a lot of the setting is rather dry. It’s a little like reading a history book, except you have to learn what everything means, because it’s a self-contained setting. I feel it appeals quite strongly to people who want a lot of “lore” and history in their game, and who want to really get into the weeds of what a political marrage between these two clan leaders means for future trade agreements and military alliances. People who like their fantasy stories to have an index in the back of character names with a pronunciation guide, and their family trees and stuff.

                                          Like… the first hour of character creation was rolling through d20 tables that randomized the eventual fates of each PC’s grandparents through various wars and major historical events, so we could determine stuff like “is your family famous?” and “how much do you hate wolf pirates?”

                                          Anyway, here’s my girl Tikaret, she’s a priestess of Issaries, and she discovered one of his lost aspects on a heroquest once.

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