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  3. Handheld PC makers are slowly losing touch with Valve's successful Steam Deck template of affordability, and that's very concerning

Handheld PC makers are slowly losing touch with Valve's successful Steam Deck template of affordability, and that's very concerning

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved PC Gaming
pcgaming
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  • troedT troed

    let’s say that you can only trust iPhone as “paradigm of safety” (lol)

    Feel free to research the consensus opinion by cybersecurity professionals instead of just continously showing off your own ignorance.

    what are your kids doing that need of the highest tier phone to guarantee the highest level of security

    They, as human beings, have the right to their privacy.

    You just answered my previous question; “Do you consider kids to be actual people?”; and the answer is apparently “no”.

    Btw, you don’t get the newest high end iPhone for 900 EUR. You might want to get a lot more facts behind your arguments before trying to show off online.

    A This user is from outside of this forum
    A This user is from outside of this forum
    absolutelynotavelociraptor@sh.itjust.works
    wrote last edited by absolutelynotavelociraptor@sh.itjust.works
    #41

    So many words to not answer even one of my questions, “expert”.

    troedT 1 Reply Last reply
    1
    • A absolutelynotavelociraptor@sh.itjust.works

      So many words to not answer even one of my questions, “expert”.

      troedT This user is from outside of this forum
      troedT This user is from outside of this forum
      troed
      wrote last edited by
      #42

      Why should I answer when those questions include statements that aren’t true? (That’s called the “loaded question” fallacy, btw).

      https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

      900 EUR is what the previous iPhone model, in its lowest configuration, costs atm. Compare to your “highest tier” which is part of the question you want me to answer.

      Answer this instead: Why is it so important for you to voice opinions on things you know nothing about on the Internet?

      A 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • A absolutelynotavelociraptor@sh.itjust.works

        Tell me you know don’t jack about linux without telling me you don’t know jack about linux in 25 words or less.

        appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
        appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
        appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        wrote last edited by appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        #43

        Well then: Clear it up.

        I run headless debian VMs at home on a proxmox HV and another NUC with Debian that does Docker tasks.
        My steckdeck runs the stock OS and am not scared to tinker within it.

        Never assumed to be a pro and would consider an amateur at best that isnt scared to tinker.
        It’s just that I prefer convenience most of the time.

        So then. These are my cards. Explain what I learned wrong about the fractured linux ecosystem.
        So far I know that Arch, Debian and RHEL the biggest distro families are.

        Edit: Very helpful. Downvoting instead of telling me where I am wrong.
        (Yes my comment was provocative but absolutelynotavelociraptor@sh.itjust.works should just tell where I am wrong if they are so sure of themselve).

        G 1 Reply Last reply
        4
        • dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD This user is from outside of this forum
          dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD This user is from outside of this forum
          dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          wrote last edited by dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          #44

          why cant valve optimise their new games specifically for their hardware steam deck? why is that impossible?

          troedT 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • V Voytrekk

            I doubt Windows is the reason these are more expensive. Microsoft wants Windows in the handheld PC space, so they are likely to provide licenses for free and likely help subsidize the costs a bit, especially if they include trials for gamepass.

            A This user is from outside of this forum
            A This user is from outside of this forum
            atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works
            wrote last edited by
            #45

            Except that Windows versions of the same handheld are more expensive.

            1 Reply Last reply
            24
            • zecg@lemmy.worldZ zecg@lemmy.world

              Other manufacturers do not have that luxury.

              They can find some margin in using a rolling Arch distro instead of paying for Windows, Gabe helpfully provided the template that you can reuse.

              K This user is from outside of this forum
              K This user is from outside of this forum
              korhaka@sopuli.xyz
              wrote last edited by
              #46

              Which if anything is other manufacturers benefiting from the R&D that Valve have done with Proton and just making it freely available to anyone.

              1 Reply Last reply
              7
              • B Beacon

                All the kids i know either have hand-me-down phones or new phones that’re at most mid-range or multiple generations old. I.E. the large majority of kids aren’t using 900 dollar phones

                M This user is from outside of this forum
                M This user is from outside of this forum
                mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works
                wrote last edited by
                #47

                OK? Give it a couple more years and I bet you’ll start seeing that with handheld PC’s too

                1 Reply Last reply
                2
                • troedT troed

                  Why should I answer when those questions include statements that aren’t true? (That’s called the “loaded question” fallacy, btw).

                  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

                  900 EUR is what the previous iPhone model, in its lowest configuration, costs atm. Compare to your “highest tier” which is part of the question you want me to answer.

                  Answer this instead: Why is it so important for you to voice opinions on things you know nothing about on the Internet?

                  A This user is from outside of this forum
                  A This user is from outside of this forum
                  absolutelynotavelociraptor@sh.itjust.works
                  wrote last edited by
                  #48

                  And yet, you still haven’t answered my question: what gives you a 900€ phone in terms of security that a cheaper phone with grapheneOS or a cheaper iphone won’t give you? But keep going with your “i’m the expert” attitude, you are really, REALLY educating me

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                    why cant valve optimise their new games specifically for their hardware steam deck? why is that impossible?

                    troedT This user is from outside of this forum
                    troedT This user is from outside of this forum
                    troed
                    wrote last edited by
                    #49

                    It’s not theirs?

                    dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD 1 Reply Last reply
                    1
                    • troedT troed

                      It’s not theirs?

                      dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                      dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                      dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                      wrote last edited by
                      #50

                      valve can optimize their games for a steam deck. The steam deck isnt theirs?

                      N troedT 2 Replies Last reply
                      0
                      • F fartmaster69@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                        I mean, I don’t know valve’s margins but strategically they could sell steam decks at a loss and still come out ahead.

                        D This user is from outside of this forum
                        D This user is from outside of this forum
                        dipcart@lemmy.world
                        wrote last edited by
                        #51

                        100%

                        Before I bought a steam deck I hadn’t used steam in years. Now I’ve bought like 20 games… Its a great way to get people on steam who otherwise wouldnt be interested.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        5
                        • appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                          Who supports that?
                          At least Windows is only one plattform in comparison to the bazillion linux-distros.

                          Same issue devs face with consoles vs PCs.

                          N This user is from outside of this forum
                          N This user is from outside of this forum
                          Natanael
                          wrote last edited by natanael@infosec.pub
                          #52

                          Steam on Linux defaults to providing a container based standard Linux environment which is independent of the underlying OS, providing access to all the expected software libraries and OS calls that games need to run.

                          This is integrated into SteamOS. It’s also available via Steam on any other Linux distro. (And if you wanted to you could cut that part out and run it without Steam.)

                          When running Windows games it even runs Proton within this container environment.

                          That gives you a single very predictable and version controlled software environment.

                          Meanwhile Windows randomly deprecates stuff that somebody might have invested tons of development effort into (silverlight, mixed reality, etc)

                          appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                            valve can optimize their games for a steam deck. The steam deck isnt theirs?

                            N This user is from outside of this forum
                            N This user is from outside of this forum
                            Natanael
                            wrote last edited by natanael@infosec.pub
                            #53

                            There’s a lot of similarities and differences - the Steam Deck’s gaming mode is able to run a very barebones OS, similar to the very basic OS that the Nintendo Switch runs, with the game running in comparable sandboxes with stable software interfaces.

                            But Nintendo worked with Nvidia specifically to develop a variant of their hardware dedicated for gaming, while Valve essentially put a Linux laptop in a handheld console format (IIRC they did get help from AMD, but it wasn’t the same kind of deep collaboration), which notably may have different components between different hardware revisions.

                            When you try to maximize game performance that makes a difference, because on the Switch you can reliably push the hardware to the limits and expect it to keep working and on a Deck you have to test the hardware before pushing it. And if you find a trick that depends on architectural quirks you have to special-case it to not break on other hardware. There’s no guarantee that rarely used hardware features (both physical, and CPU/GPU instructions, etc) will stick around on a future revision of a Deck, while Nintendo guarantees forward compatibility (with help from Nvidia).

                            Nintendo even worked with Nvidia to emulate the Switch 1 GPU when running games for the first Switch on a Switch 2! They’re even going so far that they’re patching the emulation layer on a per-game basis to fix games where the default emulation method fails! And the ability to do this depends on knowing the exact properties of the hardware revisions of both the original and new GPU! (there’s architectural differences in the GPU that would break some games unless it was emulated)

                            Now Lenovo also has devices running SteamOS on different hardware, so games that runs on both either needs special cased optimizations for both, or only generic optimizations, or they simply have to decide to support one specific model better than others (which could end up with a game looking worse on better hardware because the dev didn’t try as hard with that hardware)

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                              Well then: Clear it up.

                              I run headless debian VMs at home on a proxmox HV and another NUC with Debian that does Docker tasks.
                              My steckdeck runs the stock OS and am not scared to tinker within it.

                              Never assumed to be a pro and would consider an amateur at best that isnt scared to tinker.
                              It’s just that I prefer convenience most of the time.

                              So then. These are my cards. Explain what I learned wrong about the fractured linux ecosystem.
                              So far I know that Arch, Debian and RHEL the biggest distro families are.

                              Edit: Very helpful. Downvoting instead of telling me where I am wrong.
                              (Yes my comment was provocative but absolutelynotavelociraptor@sh.itjust.works should just tell where I am wrong if they are so sure of themselve).

                              G This user is from outside of this forum
                              G This user is from outside of this forum
                              ganryuu@lemmy.ca
                              wrote last edited by
                              #54

                              The other answer from Natanael tells you that now

                              appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA 1 Reply Last reply
                              2
                              • F frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone

                                Steam Deck hits a sweet spot. You can make it more powerful, but it’ll cost significantly more. You can make it cheaper, but you’ll cut out too many games people want to play.

                                Also, anything like this with a resolution higher than 720p is wasting pixels and GPU power, IMO.

                                A This user is from outside of this forum
                                A This user is from outside of this forum
                                arcane2077@sh.itjust.works
                                wrote last edited by
                                #55
                                1. you couldn’t make it more powerful, it had the best of the best.
                                2. my eyes work, and I still I don’t think clearer text and UI is a waste
                                F F 2 Replies Last reply
                                4
                                • G ganryuu@lemmy.ca

                                  The other answer from Natanael tells you that now

                                  appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
                                  appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
                                  appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #56

                                  Noticed and will be reading now.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  1
                                  • N Natanael

                                    Steam on Linux defaults to providing a container based standard Linux environment which is independent of the underlying OS, providing access to all the expected software libraries and OS calls that games need to run.

                                    This is integrated into SteamOS. It’s also available via Steam on any other Linux distro. (And if you wanted to you could cut that part out and run it without Steam.)

                                    When running Windows games it even runs Proton within this container environment.

                                    That gives you a single very predictable and version controlled software environment.

                                    Meanwhile Windows randomly deprecates stuff that somebody might have invested tons of development effort into (silverlight, mixed reality, etc)

                                    appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
                                    appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.comA This user is from outside of this forum
                                    appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #57

                                    When talking about a container environment you are talking about WINE, arent you?

                                    But if we are talking about native developed games, how would that look?
                                    That sounds to me like 1st priority-development will be continued using Windows as a base + DirectX and reliance that WINE will somewhat manage that.
                                    How would native Linux look for game devs in terms of platform targeting?

                                    N P 2 Replies Last reply
                                    0
                                    • A arcane2077@sh.itjust.works
                                      1. you couldn’t make it more powerful, it had the best of the best.
                                      2. my eyes work, and I still I don’t think clearer text and UI is a waste
                                      F This user is from outside of this forum
                                      F This user is from outside of this forum
                                      frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #58

                                      There are several competitors that are more powerful, like the ROG Ally. They also need a bigger battery to support it, or they have worse battery life. And they’re more expensive.

                                      Clear text and UI is an issue because games don’t scale their shit properly.

                                      A 1 Reply Last reply
                                      13
                                      • dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com

                                        valve can optimize their games for a steam deck. The steam deck isnt theirs?

                                        troedT This user is from outside of this forum
                                        troedT This user is from outside of this forum
                                        troed
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #59

                                        When a games developer make a game for Switch Nintendo has a say in how it must perform before you’re allowed to release it. Valve have no such requirements on games put on Steam - it’s up to the developers whether to require a lot of performance or not. Thus, while Valve sells the Steam Deck that doesn’t mean games on Steam necessarily run well on it.

                                        dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD 1 Reply Last reply
                                        3
                                        • troedT troed

                                          When a games developer make a game for Switch Nintendo has a say in how it must perform before you’re allowed to release it. Valve have no such requirements on games put on Steam - it’s up to the developers whether to require a lot of performance or not. Thus, while Valve sells the Steam Deck that doesn’t mean games on Steam necessarily run well on it.

                                          dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                                          dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                                          dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #60

                                          Steam Deck can’t ever have that luxury.

                                          Still not sure why this is the case. Have yet to hear any clear argument why it will never happen for Valve.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
                                          0

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