An interesting piece about the #ttrpg media landscape: https://personable.blog/media-crowdfunding/
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@foolishowl @Printdevil @Taskerland
Ahh, I see what you're getting at. Notably, one of the big changes in D&D and its culture that roughly coincided with the shift from TSR to WotC (though possibly coincidentally, as the Player's Option stuff and even some early 3.0 planning predates that) was a shift from optimization being treated as entirely immature, selfish, and shameful to being encouraged. And I definitely see how that can be a turnoff.1/2
I think it was CCGs. Those completely grabbed roleplayers and got them hooked on gambling like you wouldn't believe. I can't find people into "roleplaying" these days who don't love playing with the CCG decks that they paid money for (for some reason) and sit there hoping randomly drawing cards will make them win. WotC's success was owed to Magic the Gathering (and lack of enforcement of gambling regulations), so that's the connection. The company got enough bank to buy TSR, through the same technique that trained roleplayers to value optimizing, since that's how you play CCGs.
Like seriously, my first real gaming group started that shit and I dunno why I was immune. I'd try to make up like, stories about what was happening in the game, with the lands and the creatures and everyone else just ignored me and was like "I'm going to tap 2 mountains and a plains to bring out the etc" and nothing but that forever.
CC: @foolishowl@social.coop @Printdevil@dice.camp @Taskerland@dice.camp -
The whole combat effectiveness type approach to gaming is why I find it hard to chat to local gamers, in a gaming shop, who are gaming.
Because it just looks like an RPG
But it isn't.
Yeah, exactly that. You have to actually Play a Role at some point or you're just wargaming. Which is fine, but it's not roleplaying.
CC: @pteryx@dice.camp @foolishowl@social.coop @Taskerland@dice.camp -
I think it was CCGs. Those completely grabbed roleplayers and got them hooked on gambling like you wouldn't believe. I can't find people into "roleplaying" these days who don't love playing with the CCG decks that they paid money for (for some reason) and sit there hoping randomly drawing cards will make them win. WotC's success was owed to Magic the Gathering (and lack of enforcement of gambling regulations), so that's the connection. The company got enough bank to buy TSR, through the same technique that trained roleplayers to value optimizing, since that's how you play CCGs.
Like seriously, my first real gaming group started that shit and I dunno why I was immune. I'd try to make up like, stories about what was happening in the game, with the lands and the creatures and everyone else just ignored me and was like "I'm going to tap 2 mountains and a plains to bring out the etc" and nothing but that forever.
CC: @foolishowl@social.coop @Printdevil@dice.camp @Taskerland@dice.camp@cy @foolishowl @Printdevil @Taskerland
Not sure how gambling addiction (or demonization of all card-playing as equivalent to risking money) really relates to optimization, but I can certainly see how deckbuilding does. Though video games are arguably a better medium for just scratching the powergaming itch; they can get away with more intricate systems to exploit than any analog game could ever hope to match.Even though I play and like the 3.x games, I still want *roleplaying* in my TTRPGs.
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Unsurprisingly I have most of those.
Including the box of the Dwarven Mines.
Perhaps it wasn't my mother, maybe @Printdevil stole them.
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@Printdevil Next time I come over you can arrange that we play this in the FLGS.
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@cy @foolishowl @Printdevil @Taskerland
Not sure how gambling addiction (or demonization of all card-playing as equivalent to risking money) really relates to optimization, but I can certainly see how deckbuilding does. Though video games are arguably a better medium for just scratching the powergaming itch; they can get away with more intricate systems to exploit than any analog game could ever hope to match.Even though I play and like the 3.x games, I still want *roleplaying* in my TTRPGs.
CCGs specifically, you have to pay money to try to get the "rare" cards. I don't think it's true of card games in general. Never saw a friend group get taken over by a ravenous appetite for Bridge, though I'm sure it's happened before.
CC: @foolishowl@social.coop @Printdevil@dice.camp @Taskerland@dice.camp -
T Moreau Vazh shared this topic
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@cy CCGs are a *deeply cursed* medium. They did for the 90s rpg scene what lead in petrol did for child safety in the 1970s. @foolishowl @Printdevil @pteryx
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@cy CCGs are a *deeply cursed* medium. They did for the 90s rpg scene what lead in petrol did for child safety in the 1970s. @foolishowl @Printdevil @pteryx
And what Techbros did.. er.. always
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@Printdevil Next time I come over you can arrange that we play this in the FLGS.
"the palace of ever-plastic ducks"
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@cy CCGs are a *deeply cursed* medium. They did for the 90s rpg scene what lead in petrol did for child safety in the 1970s. @foolishowl @Printdevil @pteryx
CCGs wrecked the club landscape
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CCGs wrecked the club landscape
@Printdevil @Taskerland @cy @foolishowl
What gets me is how the reaction to CCGs, and then to online gaming, has not been "we need to do what only TTRPGs can do better than ever!", but "we need to appeal to competitive combat-obsessed types despite the other media stealing our market share by doing that being better-suited for it!"I'd thus be inclined to blame various suits who control pursestrings for the decline of TTRPGs more so than the actual CCGs and online games.
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@Printdevil @Taskerland @cy @foolishowl
What gets me is how the reaction to CCGs, and then to online gaming, has not been "we need to do what only TTRPGs can do better than ever!", but "we need to appeal to competitive combat-obsessed types despite the other media stealing our market share by doing that being better-suited for it!"I'd thus be inclined to blame various suits who control pursestrings for the decline of TTRPGs more so than the actual CCGs and online games.
I think it was a perfect storm of things, rather than just any specific one event. Which is why people end up getting tangled in knots arguing about how to improve the current situation.
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@Printdevil @Taskerland @cy @foolishowl
What gets me is how the reaction to CCGs, and then to online gaming, has not been "we need to do what only TTRPGs can do better than ever!", but "we need to appeal to competitive combat-obsessed types despite the other media stealing our market share by doing that being better-suited for it!"I'd thus be inclined to blame various suits who control pursestrings for the decline of TTRPGs more so than the actual CCGs and online games.
Half of my old club group evaporated to play CCGs when they arrived because they loved having something to spend their money on as "young professionals" that they felt gave them an advantage in games, and once you entrench that personality RPGs are just ... lost to them
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I think it was a perfect storm of things, rather than just any specific one event. Which is why people end up getting tangled in knots arguing about how to improve the current situation.
@Printdevil I think incompetent and predatory business practices can be blamed for what happened to ttrpgs in toto but it definitely makes sense to look at specific mis-steps and consequences that snowballed. The collapse of clubs and specialist shops after the D20 collapse did enormous damage as did the failure to rebuild. @pteryx @cy @foolishowl
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@Printdevil I think incompetent and predatory business practices can be blamed for what happened to ttrpgs in toto but it definitely makes sense to look at specific mis-steps and consequences that snowballed. The collapse of clubs and specialist shops after the D20 collapse did enormous damage as did the failure to rebuild. @pteryx @cy @foolishowl
I think the personality of gamers is involved too, even if it was exploited.
D20 killed gaming for me as a purchase habit, I stopped buying RPGs for many many years, and you know me, I'm a compulsive shopper for games, so you can tell how utterly repulsed D20 must have made me.
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I think the personality of gamers is involved too, even if it was exploited.
D20 killed gaming for me as a purchase habit, I stopped buying RPGs for many many years, and you know me, I'm a compulsive shopper for games, so you can tell how utterly repulsed D20 must have made me.
@Printdevil D20 definitely ended my initial love affair with the hobby. I played a bit after and play now but it is on very different terms. @pteryx @cy @foolishowl
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@Printdevil I think incompetent and predatory business practices can be blamed for what happened to ttrpgs in toto but it definitely makes sense to look at specific mis-steps and consequences that snowballed. The collapse of clubs and specialist shops after the D20 collapse did enormous damage as did the failure to rebuild. @pteryx @cy @foolishowl
@Taskerland @Printdevil @cy @foolishowl
Yeah, that's kind of what I was trying to get at: that one of those missteps was assuming that combat-focused game = $$$, and that $$$ is the only goal, and therefore the "proper" direction for D&D was to zero in on the combat parts more at the expense of what video games can't really do so well and CCGs can't do at all... and this, in turn, had knock-on effects on the rest of the industry because of the severely unbalanced network effects of D&D. -
@Printdevil D20 definitely ended my initial love affair with the hobby. I played a bit after and play now but it is on very different terms. @pteryx @cy @foolishowl
The number of people who just went "but why should we ever learn another rule set, we know D20" drove me out of the clubs. I could see the issues with monocrop so far off, and it was just.. disheartening.
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The number of people who just went "but why should we ever learn another rule set, we know D20" drove me out of the clubs. I could see the issues with monocrop so far off, and it was just.. disheartening.
@Printdevil @Taskerland @cy @foolishowl
Even as someone who *likes* 3.x, I thought the d20 Everything trend was excessive and detrimental to the industry. It's not really a one-size-fits all system... and 5e is even *less* so.
