I think I am reaching a point where I struggle to co-exist with the broader hobby.
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@Printdevil It's a similar mindset to the people who are most vocally against photography being an art-form: No no no... it's all about refractive indexes and hyperfocal distances.
@Taskerland Yes. Everything has rules, and you can find the rule, and reduce it a system you can replicate. Everyone is a behaviour engine. Aesthetics are programmable, and wine tasters make it up.
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@Taskerland Yes. Everything has rules, and you can find the rule, and reduce it a system you can replicate. Everyone is a behaviour engine. Aesthetics are programmable, and wine tasters make it up.
@Printdevil @Taskerland If I want to play a board game, I play a board game. (And sometimes I do.) I am not so committed to RPGs that I need to twist RPGs into a shape that will also scratch my board gaming itch.
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@Printdevil Now that's just crying out to be an OSR megadungeon.
"the people carrying objects along the wall casting shadows fight as ogre-mages"
@Taskerland @Printdevil @RogerBW
Pick your class!
Advanced Dungeons & Discourse - Dresden Codak
From the internet that brought you the Original Philosophy RPG. I don’t usually like the things I make but this one is pretty okay.
Dresden Codak (dresdencodak.com)
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I think there's definitely a fierce crowd of gamers who want it to be about an abstracted table based game at which you can win reward loops through aggressive exploitation of the rules and tactical use of increasing character power. I don't perceive that as roleplaying. It's stat grooming onanism.
@Printdevil @Taskerland @RogerBW rollplaying vs roleplaying is the oldest divide I know of in the hobby.
Plenty of people who really want to be wargamers when they're meant to be playing an RPG and plenty of people who craft backstories for their disposable Tyrannid hordes when they are wargaming.
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@Ashigaru I don't watch RPG YouTube, I am talking about places like reddit and bluesky.
@Taskerland @Ashigaru Hooboy, YT’s a real freakshow. You’re missing out!
I’m barely on Bluesky, FWIW, and I’ve taught myself to downvote on Reddit and move on, instead of letting the idiots drag me down to their level. Also, I avoid the more theorycrafty subs, stick to those specific to particular games, and block bad-faith actors early and often.
That said, there’s a rhetorical adage that if you’ve nothing to say, say it LOUD! (1/2)
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@Taskerland @Ashigaru Hooboy, YT’s a real freakshow. You’re missing out!
I’m barely on Bluesky, FWIW, and I’ve taught myself to downvote on Reddit and move on, instead of letting the idiots drag me down to their level. Also, I avoid the more theorycrafty subs, stick to those specific to particular games, and block bad-faith actors early and often.
That said, there’s a rhetorical adage that if you’ve nothing to say, say it LOUD! (1/2)
I doubt I’ve seen even one of these folks make a cogent, original point. As @Ashigaru says, it’s all bluster and ragebait. At best, it’s misguided; at worst, cynical.
I wouldn’t be too worried about the hobby. The good folk are having fun doing their own thing, as they always have.
And the commentariat has literally nothing better to do with its time. (2/2)
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T Moreau Vazh shared this topic
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@Printdevil @Taskerland @RogerBW rollplaying vs roleplaying is the oldest divide I know of in the hobby.
Plenty of people who really want to be wargamers when they're meant to be playing an RPG and plenty of people who craft backstories for their disposable Tyrannid hordes when they are wargaming.
@Colman This is what frustrates me a lot of the time. We know that there are different tastes within the hobby, we know that people enjoy different things, and yet we can never escape the people screaming about how you're an idiot if you think that rules are nothing but scaffolding backed by the social dynamics that actually shape play. @Printdevil @RogerBW
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@Printdevil Stat blocks, grids, and combat procedures matter. Everything else is immaterial.
@Taskerland @Printdevil So, wargames? They’re in the wrong hobby.
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@Taskerland @Printdevil So, wargames? They’re in the wrong hobby.
@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
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@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
People have been very snippy to me too, and I don't really go looking for it due to my innate loveliness. What was that criticism "guy with a die"?
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@Colman This is what frustrates me a lot of the time. We know that there are different tastes within the hobby, we know that people enjoy different things, and yet we can never escape the people screaming about how you're an idiot if you think that rules are nothing but scaffolding backed by the social dynamics that actually shape play. @Printdevil @RogerBW
I think there's a lot of virtual country club politics going on there too. I've seen people really push for a style of gaming so they can control the agenda. What I have never understood is why. As I am wont to say RPGs are a teacup of a hobby, I have no idea what the desire is to aggressively police the narratives so much. You'd think people would be happy it still exists at all.
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@Printdevil @Taskerland @RogerBW rollplaying vs roleplaying is the oldest divide I know of in the hobby.
Plenty of people who really want to be wargamers when they're meant to be playing an RPG and plenty of people who craft backstories for their disposable Tyrannid hordes when they are wargaming.
I remember hearing in MMOs about sniper gangs who hung out at the entrance to P Vs P zones and shot the people with the longest bios. I've always felt I knew that mentality in RPG groups too
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@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
There is no money in live and let live. There is only monetizing social cachet and people seem to like watching fights. @Taskerland @davej
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@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
Also don't go join a writing group, they get grumpy if all your examples are about gargoyles from the 1970s
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I think I am reaching a point where I struggle to co-exist with the broader hobby.
It seems like everywhere I look, it's people who have been relentlessly pandered to by the gaming industry getting incredibly annoyed that other people even exist.
Like, the other say some lunatic was screaming that there is no fiction in RPGs, there is only what is explicitly covered by the rules. And like... Fine... The industry has explicitly chased and encouraged such views but why so angry?
Like, the other say some lunatic was screaming that there is no fiction in RPGs, there is only what is explicitly covered by the rules. And like… Fine… The industry has explicitly chased and encouraged such views but why so angry?
This is literally every discussion I’ve had in the PF2e community. It’s beyond maddening. And suggesting that you can use published rulesets as a baseline, a scaffold, or even just as examples of what you could do to support and empower the fiction at the table, rather than restrict or remove it, just gets you buried by passive-aggressive downvotes and comments treating you like you’re an idiot.
The hobby expanded on the back of boardgame and video game players, and both of those communities often do not care about the fiction, just about optimizing the meta and winning. And that’s what we see here now.
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@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
@Taskerland @Printdevil And they’d still be wrong.
The industry—as opposed to the hobby—runs on money, and the ragebaiters arguably drive commerce to the bigger players. Until, of course, they get too toxic (and often exposed as racists and/or sex predators, FWIW), and another replaces them: there’s always another would-be pundit ready to grift their way into the limelight.
They drag you onto their own turf because it’s the only ground on which they can compete. You don’t HAVE to indulge them.
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I think there's a lot of virtual country club politics going on there too. I've seen people really push for a style of gaming so they can control the agenda. What I have never understood is why. As I am wont to say RPGs are a teacup of a hobby, I have no idea what the desire is to aggressively police the narratives so much. You'd think people would be happy it still exists at all.
I think there’s a lot of virtual country club politics going on there too. I’ve seen people really push for a style of gaming so they can control the agenda. What I have never understood is why.
I had someone reply to me on a YouTube comment once that made this click for me.
They’re all playing on Start Playing Games, and they want to ensure they don’t have to think about anything, just run their RPGBOT-optimized build and flex on the other players.
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I think there’s a lot of virtual country club politics going on there too. I’ve seen people really push for a style of gaming so they can control the agenda. What I have never understood is why.
I had someone reply to me on a YouTube comment once that made this click for me.
They’re all playing on Start Playing Games, and they want to ensure they don’t have to think about anything, just run their RPGBOT-optimized build and flex on the other players.
That's somewhat grimly just how some people are. They tend to be very loud too
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@Taskerland @Printdevil And they’d still be wrong.
The industry—as opposed to the hobby—runs on money, and the ragebaiters arguably drive commerce to the bigger players. Until, of course, they get too toxic (and often exposed as racists and/or sex predators, FWIW), and another replaces them: there’s always another would-be pundit ready to grift their way into the limelight.
They drag you onto their own turf because it’s the only ground on which they can compete. You don’t HAVE to indulge them.
@Taskerland @Printdevil I guess I’m trying to say there’s nothing wrong with your gaming opinions, and we all have your back, else we would’ve devolved into name-calling and ad hominems by now.
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@Taskerland @Printdevil And they’d still be wrong.
The industry—as opposed to the hobby—runs on money, and the ragebaiters arguably drive commerce to the bigger players. Until, of course, they get too toxic (and often exposed as racists and/or sex predators, FWIW), and another replaces them: there’s always another would-be pundit ready to grift their way into the limelight.
They drag you onto their own turf because it’s the only ground on which they can compete. You don’t HAVE to indulge them.
RPGs are one of the hobbies with a tremendous silent majority, more groups probably exist than we'd ever know, playing happily for decades till the vagaries of time and ages, or just society makes them pop up for a look. Most of my old group never bought a game in their lives, that's what annoys corporate about RPGs. They can't harvest people who just game, and most groups aren't buying six players guides. They want us playing a different version of the hobby entirely
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