I think I am reaching a point where I struggle to co-exist with the broader hobby.
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@Printdevil Nah, that's just the reality. We should ignore the reality in favour of seeing the world as a reality, and everything else as a lense.
Basically, Knightmare, but with more people in helmets and one poor sod shouting at them that something's about to eat them.
@Taskerland @RogerBWPlato's Dystopian Cave Network.
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@Taskerland I think that "statblocks" "the game is in the numbers crowd" have always existed. There's a very significant crowd of frothing "I've been playing with the white books" crowd who reject utterly the game as fiction played. They have a whole post hoc ergo propter hoc thing going on, where they mythologise the games they have been in afterwards and sit telling stories *about the games*
That's one of the reasons I think they seek to reinstate what it was like when they were 14 again.
@Printdevil Back in the day, I used to associate that mindset with a kind of narrow blustering masculinity...
Forget feelings and telling stories, that's all a bit poofy: Give me piles of corpses and magical swords with spikes on them.
What's interesting is that while the incipient misogyny and homophobia have mostly dropped out of sight, there is still a profound resistance to the idea of RPGs being something creative and arty.
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Plato's Dystopian Cave Network.
@Printdevil Now that's just crying out to be an OSR megadungeon.
"the people carrying objects along the wall casting shadows fight as ogre-mages"
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@Printdevil Back in the day, I used to associate that mindset with a kind of narrow blustering masculinity...
Forget feelings and telling stories, that's all a bit poofy: Give me piles of corpses and magical swords with spikes on them.
What's interesting is that while the incipient misogyny and homophobia have mostly dropped out of sight, there is still a profound resistance to the idea of RPGs being something creative and arty.
@Taskerland I have had this argument over and over with people regarding any break from the proscribed D&D rotes as "forcing authorial proxies by the GM"
These people run terrible games, so I don't really care.
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@Taskerland I have had this argument over and over with people regarding any break from the proscribed D&D rotes as "forcing authorial proxies by the GM"
These people run terrible games, so I don't really care.
@Printdevil It's a similar mindset to the people who are most vocally against photography being an art-form: No no no... it's all about refractive indexes and hyperfocal distances.
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@Printdevil It's a similar mindset to the people who are most vocally against photography being an art-form: No no no... it's all about refractive indexes and hyperfocal distances.
@Taskerland Yes. Everything has rules, and you can find the rule, and reduce it a system you can replicate. Everyone is a behaviour engine. Aesthetics are programmable, and wine tasters make it up.
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@Taskerland Yes. Everything has rules, and you can find the rule, and reduce it a system you can replicate. Everyone is a behaviour engine. Aesthetics are programmable, and wine tasters make it up.
@Printdevil @Taskerland If I want to play a board game, I play a board game. (And sometimes I do.) I am not so committed to RPGs that I need to twist RPGs into a shape that will also scratch my board gaming itch.
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@Printdevil Now that's just crying out to be an OSR megadungeon.
"the people carrying objects along the wall casting shadows fight as ogre-mages"
@Taskerland @Printdevil @RogerBW
Pick your class!
Advanced Dungeons & Discourse - Dresden Codak
From the internet that brought you the Original Philosophy RPG. I don’t usually like the things I make but this one is pretty okay.
Dresden Codak (dresdencodak.com)
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I think there's definitely a fierce crowd of gamers who want it to be about an abstracted table based game at which you can win reward loops through aggressive exploitation of the rules and tactical use of increasing character power. I don't perceive that as roleplaying. It's stat grooming onanism.
@Printdevil @Taskerland @RogerBW rollplaying vs roleplaying is the oldest divide I know of in the hobby.
Plenty of people who really want to be wargamers when they're meant to be playing an RPG and plenty of people who craft backstories for their disposable Tyrannid hordes when they are wargaming.
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@Ashigaru I don't watch RPG YouTube, I am talking about places like reddit and bluesky.
@Taskerland @Ashigaru Hooboy, YT’s a real freakshow. You’re missing out!
I’m barely on Bluesky, FWIW, and I’ve taught myself to downvote on Reddit and move on, instead of letting the idiots drag me down to their level. Also, I avoid the more theorycrafty subs, stick to those specific to particular games, and block bad-faith actors early and often.
That said, there’s a rhetorical adage that if you’ve nothing to say, say it LOUD! (1/2)
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@Taskerland @Ashigaru Hooboy, YT’s a real freakshow. You’re missing out!
I’m barely on Bluesky, FWIW, and I’ve taught myself to downvote on Reddit and move on, instead of letting the idiots drag me down to their level. Also, I avoid the more theorycrafty subs, stick to those specific to particular games, and block bad-faith actors early and often.
That said, there’s a rhetorical adage that if you’ve nothing to say, say it LOUD! (1/2)
I doubt I’ve seen even one of these folks make a cogent, original point. As @Ashigaru says, it’s all bluster and ragebait. At best, it’s misguided; at worst, cynical.
I wouldn’t be too worried about the hobby. The good folk are having fun doing their own thing, as they always have.
And the commentariat has literally nothing better to do with its time. (2/2)
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T Moreau Vazh shared this topic
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@Printdevil @Taskerland @RogerBW rollplaying vs roleplaying is the oldest divide I know of in the hobby.
Plenty of people who really want to be wargamers when they're meant to be playing an RPG and plenty of people who craft backstories for their disposable Tyrannid hordes when they are wargaming.
@Colman This is what frustrates me a lot of the time. We know that there are different tastes within the hobby, we know that people enjoy different things, and yet we can never escape the people screaming about how you're an idiot if you think that rules are nothing but scaffolding backed by the social dynamics that actually shape play. @Printdevil @RogerBW
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@Printdevil Stat blocks, grids, and combat procedures matter. Everything else is immaterial.
@Taskerland @Printdevil So, wargames? They’re in the wrong hobby.
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@Taskerland @Printdevil So, wargames? They’re in the wrong hobby.
@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
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@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
People have been very snippy to me too, and I don't really go looking for it due to my innate loveliness. What was that criticism "guy with a die"?
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@Colman This is what frustrates me a lot of the time. We know that there are different tastes within the hobby, we know that people enjoy different things, and yet we can never escape the people screaming about how you're an idiot if you think that rules are nothing but scaffolding backed by the social dynamics that actually shape play. @Printdevil @RogerBW
I think there's a lot of virtual country club politics going on there too. I've seen people really push for a style of gaming so they can control the agenda. What I have never understood is why. As I am wont to say RPGs are a teacup of a hobby, I have no idea what the desire is to aggressively police the narratives so much. You'd think people would be happy it still exists at all.
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@Printdevil @Taskerland @RogerBW rollplaying vs roleplaying is the oldest divide I know of in the hobby.
Plenty of people who really want to be wargamers when they're meant to be playing an RPG and plenty of people who craft backstories for their disposable Tyrannid hordes when they are wargaming.
I remember hearing in MMOs about sniper gangs who hung out at the entrance to P Vs P zones and shot the people with the longest bios. I've always felt I knew that mentality in RPG groups too
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@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
There is no money in live and let live. There is only monetizing social cachet and people seem to like watching fights. @Taskerland @davej
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@davej Yes, but they could say the same of me 'Go and join a writing workshop!' - I am just depressed that live-and-let-live is not in the vocabulary of people who have been relentlessly indulged by the entire hobby for decades now. @Printdevil
Also don't go join a writing group, they get grumpy if all your examples are about gargoyles from the 1970s
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I think I am reaching a point where I struggle to co-exist with the broader hobby.
It seems like everywhere I look, it's people who have been relentlessly pandered to by the gaming industry getting incredibly annoyed that other people even exist.
Like, the other say some lunatic was screaming that there is no fiction in RPGs, there is only what is explicitly covered by the rules. And like... Fine... The industry has explicitly chased and encouraged such views but why so angry?
Like, the other say some lunatic was screaming that there is no fiction in RPGs, there is only what is explicitly covered by the rules. And like… Fine… The industry has explicitly chased and encouraged such views but why so angry?
This is literally every discussion I’ve had in the PF2e community. It’s beyond maddening. And suggesting that you can use published rulesets as a baseline, a scaffold, or even just as examples of what you could do to support and empower the fiction at the table, rather than restrict or remove it, just gets you buried by passive-aggressive downvotes and comments treating you like you’re an idiot.
The hobby expanded on the back of boardgame and video game players, and both of those communities often do not care about the fiction, just about optimizing the meta and winning. And that’s what we see here now.
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