There is a clear power disparity between a father and a daughter. It’s debatable if the daughter could even realistically consent in that case.

But a depiction of it in porn is in my view not inherently unethical. I can disapprove of it personally, but that doesn’t mean we should start banning it based on feelings of inappropriateness.

We depict murder and violence in movies and video games too. Actual murder is of course not exactly ethical, but we have no problem accepting it in a movie, because nobody is actually being murdered. You might not like to watch a movie like Saw or something (I personally don’t), but it doesn’t make the movie itself unethical. To me, porn is no different. There’s a clear separation between fiction and reality.

Where imo a line is crossed, is if said media actually makes a clear effort to promote these acts IRL. But that’s not the case here.

What if the daughter is in their 20s or 30s? As for depiction, yes there are depiction of violence and murder in movies and games but it is not done in a way that glorify it and most people don’t watch it with thirst for murder and violence and they don’t get off to it either. The problem with porn is it’s made with that in mind, it only exist for people to lust after and get off to it. In many circumstances they are always trying to look for more extreme content because the normal stuff isn’t as satisfying anymore. It has been shown to affect the same area of the brain as meth and cocaine. It doesn’t cause harm physically but mentally. Sure a thing existing doesn’t make it inherently wrong but it more the effect it has on the people consuming the content. It’s also why drugs are bad. You could say the drug is just a plant, that it’s natural and that there is nothing wrong with that plant existing. But the problem is the effect that plant has on people who consume it. And I am not against you drawing something in private at home or anything, in fact I am strictly against spying and mass surveillance and people should all have privacy in their own home and place they live. So whatever you do on your own time by yourself alone I don’t care but the problem comes when that thing gets shared with others and affects them negatively.

This is not contradictory.

The meta-study says that pornography contributing to sexual aggression is not proven. Meaning, it doesn’t make it worse.

Meanwhile the population study seems to suggest porn usage reduces sexual aggression, or is at least correlated with it.

I am really fucking old, to be fair, but every time I hear about violent video games being censored it’s Australia.

Talk about braindead / misguided legislature.

Meanwhile the population study seems to suggest porn usage reduces sexual aggression, or is at least correlated with it.

The last sentence of the abstract (More studies with improved practices and preregistration would be welcome.) seems to be adressing this. In the study itself they say:

A third group of studies considers relationships between pornography consumption and sexual violence at the population level (e.g., Diamond et al., 2011; Gentry, 1991). In such studies, changes in the population rate of sexual crimes are associated with changes in the availability of pornography, often due to changes in the law. Cross-nationally, most (though not all) such studies suggest that pornography consumption is correlated with reductions in sexual violence. However, such data are correlational in nature, and third variables at the societal level may also be responsible for these patterns.

You said, at the start of our dialog, that:

Meanwhile the population study seems to suggest porn usage reduces sexual aggression, or is at least correlated with it.

The last sentence of the abstract (More studies with improved practices and preregistration would be welcome.) seems to be adressing this. In the study itself they say:

A third group of studies considers relationships between pornography consumption and sexual violence at the population level (e.g., Diamond et al., 2011; Gentry, 1991). In such studies, changes in the population rate of sexual crimes are associated with changes in the availability of pornography, often due to changes in the law. Cross-nationally, most (though not all) such studies suggest that pornography consumption is correlated with reductions in sexual violence. However, such data are correlational in nature, and third variables at the societal level may also be responsible for these patterns.

You said, at the start of our dialog, that:

Regardless, there are tons of studies showing that consuming this kind of porn actually helps prevent people from acting on these fantasies

“This kind” refers to violent porn, i suppose? Because the study states that:

Our meta-analytic results reveal no relationship between exposure to nonviolent pornography and sexual aggression.

So they are not talking about “this kind” of porn.

We don’t have a specific cordoned off section for meth and cocaine in our brains. Many things trigger those areas of the brain, including some pretty innocuous stuff.

Porn isn’t physically addictive like meth and cocaine. It can be psychologically addictive though, but that goes for a lot of things out there.

Stuff like meth and cocaine can actually alter your brain, porn does not.

Anyone can develop an unhealthy relationship with porn, but that goes for just about anything out there.

The meta analysis addresses porn in general. That includes fetishized content like violent or “taboo” pornography. It states there’s no evidence that it makes sexual aggression more prevalent, and that population studies show that it’s at least correlated with a reduction instead.

We can nitpick the wording all day long, but ultimately I think the takeaway is that there’s no evidence that it has negative effects, and there’s at least some evidence that suggests it has positive effects.

Violent pornography was weakly correlated with sexual aggression, although the current evidence was unable to distinguish between a selection effect as compared to a socialization effect.

If anything, this points towards the opposite conclusion. And that is with zero nitpicking.

The inability to distinguish between selection and socialization means there’s no evidence for a causal link. At best, it suggests that people who commit sexual aggression generally like porn featuring it more, but even that is apparently a weak correlation apparently.

I wouldn’t mind if Valve did. It’s the unaccountable payment processors deciding morality that’s spooky, because there’s no meaningful alternative.

I have no obligation to follow your moral compass - which is nothing more than your opinion. The only common denominator binding both of us, is codified law.

Ah, the german approach (used mainly between 1934 and 1945)

I don’t disagree. It also doesn’t prove your point though, so we are back to square one.

Maybe this is of some relevance for us, i came across it in another discussion a while back.

It’s a study that looks at CFSM (Child fantasy sexual material) and tries to determine, if it makes pedophiles more or less likley to assault children in real life.

Unfortunately they arrive at the conclusion, that we don’t have enoth studys to know yet. I would assume the same to be true for violent porn and rl sexual assault. But i am happy to be corrected, if you have the data to back it up.

Oh yeah, I agree. That is what I meant to meant to say. The payment processors are acting like a cartel here.

They weren’t pushing for credit card processors to block payments for specific games. They were pushing for the payment processors to block money to Steam entirely, which is why Steam caved and instead removed a small list of games. It was a compromise to allow credit card companies to keep doing business with them. Overall it’s pretty small potatoes–a small but vocal group, a small and worthless collection of games. People are understandably worried about the precedent of giving in to censorship at the demand of a group like this, but there are enough things to worry about right now that I’m not going to give it much thought until I hear the slope has slipped further than this.

Hmm yes porn actually can alter your brain look it up.

Here I found something for you, you won’t need to search for it now. https://neurosciencenews.com/neuroscience-pornography-brain-15354/

This article is overly sensationalist/alarmist and doesn’t match the study behind it.

This is the study they’re referencing: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/5/3/388

It primarily focuses on internet addiction and video game addiction. Pornography is mostly mentioned in passing as “likely similar”.

In it, they review evidence that these things can be addictive, and that people experience pleasure doing them (this is the whole “same-areas-as-coke-and-meth” thing btw; the brain is happy playing video games, and it is also happy doing coke). However, they distinctly mention that behavioral addiction is not necessarily the same as substance addiction:

Together with studies on Internet addiction and Internet Gaming Disorder we see strong evidence for considering addictive Internet behaviors as behavioral addiction. Future research needs to address whether or not there are specific differences between substance and behavioral addiction

The exact quote about areas of the brain thing:

Georgiadis and Kringelbach concluded, “it is clear that the networks involved in human sexual behavior are remarkably similar to the networks involved in processing other rewards”

The brain rewards sexual behaviour. Makes perfect sense from an evolutionary point of view, so not exactly a shocking conclusion.

And regarding the “brain-altering” thing, the study also directly mentions that this is simply what happens when the brain is activated through its reward systems. This “altering” happens for everything that triggers some kind of dopamine hit. It’s not the case that porn does something special here; a model train hobby for example would do the same to enthusiasts for example.

I remember this study actually, I’ve seen it before. It is frequently misquoted or represented in an extremely alarmist way, mostly by people with a dislike for pornography. But the study doesn’t back up their assertions that porn is anything special when compared to any other behavioral addiction, it actually expressly doesn’t.