Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.
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BECMI DnD actually DID rename it to "Mystic" but that didn't really stick, and also didn't really manage to get the essence of the class. (The name I think fits better to something like a psion)
9/?
@kyonshi Did BECMI include psionics rules? I know I always find new things in there when I look, but it was a while since I took the books out. Maybe time to do it again.
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@Printdevil I've certainly previously read it was created because someone wanted to play Remo. @Taskerland @kyonshi
@devilsjunkshop @Printdevil @Taskerland there were multiple strains of the idea. Kung Fu guys were on the minds of a lot of young guys back then
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@kyonshi Remember that this is the way it has been presented by the Gygax smear campaign against Arneson, when trying to rob Dave of royalties from D&D. Kask was part of that very one sided view of things. It's worth being a bit careful with the wording there.
That being said, it's very typical of how things worked back then to not really include much information about the setting. The Greyhawk book doesn't look like a setting book like we know them now either.
@AndreasDavour @mhd yes, but I've read some interesting textual analyses about it and that seemed to be what happened. Arneson seemed to be a great mind for coming up with interesting play ideas, but from everything I've seen he struggled putting stuff into printed form.
(I say as someone who tried to run DNA/DOA)
(By the way what a world we live in that I can talk about a textual analysis if a DnD supplement and mean it)
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@AndreasDavour @mhd yes, but I've read some interesting textual analyses about it and that seemed to be what happened. Arneson seemed to be a great mind for coming up with interesting play ideas, but from everything I've seen he struggled putting stuff into printed form.
(I say as someone who tried to run DNA/DOA)
(By the way what a world we live in that I can talk about a textual analysis if a DnD supplement and mean it)
@kyonshi It is kind of cool, yeah! RPGs can be part of cultural studies now.
I have become somewhat sensible to the way the Gygax narrative seem to seep in as truth online, so I felt like mention it.
I think one reason Arneson had problems writing things down was he had a very different style than Gygax. From what I've read he improvised *a lot* and when Kask and Gygax saw something needing work, he had all he needed.
That being said, publishing it comes with challenges!
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@mhd assassins as a class were a bit of a misstep as originally written anyway. They were an NPC class that enterprising players could hire, but somehow they got made into a PC class.
@kyonshi Well, IMHO most classes were missteps, so I'm not throwing more shade than usual on the poor assassins
IIRC in their OD&D version they were even more inept than regular thieves but awesome at disguise, with only a 5/10% miss chance โ and this not being based on level. So if the problem can be solved in any way with disguise, that would be preferred to thievery or fightingโฆ
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@kyonshi Well, IMHO most classes were missteps, so I'm not throwing more shade than usual on the poor assassins
IIRC in their OD&D version they were even more inept than regular thieves but awesome at disguise, with only a 5/10% miss chance โ and this not being based on level. So if the problem can be solved in any way with disguise, that would be preferred to thievery or fightingโฆ
@mhd @kyonshi
Also, poisons are a *super* equalizer, just have to be careful about where you use them, because witnesses go berserk.Assassins are 2 levels lower in Thief skills, which is still pretty cheap compared to other classes (Level 3 = 3000 EP = just over Level 2 for Monk), and they get EP for assassinations, including the percentile-roll off-screen assassin table (use of which is not explained in the book). They always levelled *fast*.
Every edition nerfed them worse.
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@Printdevil The list of things players have missed in your games is sadly extensive @Taskerland @kyonshi
This is the peril of lore.
Also lazy ass players never investigating the graveyard in NYC in 1983
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@mhd @kyonshi
Also, poisons are a *super* equalizer, just have to be careful about where you use them, because witnesses go berserk.Assassins are 2 levels lower in Thief skills, which is still pretty cheap compared to other classes (Level 3 = 3000 EP = just over Level 2 for Monk), and they get EP for assassinations, including the percentile-roll off-screen assassin table (use of which is not explained in the book). They always levelled *fast*.
Every edition nerfed them worse.
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Right now I keep thinking about calling the class "Ascetic" in my house rules, but I have the feeling that also doesn't capture all it should be.
By now I read a ton of wuxia fantasy though and I feel that might come the closest.
That is besides the phrase "martial artist", which in my opinion also should encompass fighters and clerics.@kyonshi Under the influence of Shadowrun, I mentally shorthand it as "physical adept" but that doesn't help at all unless you are already Shadowrun-brained!
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@kyonshi Under the influence of Shadowrun, I mentally shorthand it as "physical adept" but that doesn't help at all unless you are already Shadowrun-brained!
@wlonk in my games everyone always runs gunslinger adepts, so...
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@wlonk in my games everyone always runs gunslinger adepts, so...
@kyonshi It turns out itโs all superheroes.
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Right now I keep thinking about calling the class "Ascetic" in my house rules, but I have the feeling that also doesn't capture all it should be.
By now I read a ton of wuxia fantasy though and I feel that might come the closest.
That is besides the phrase "martial artist", which in my opinion also should encompass fighters and clerics.@kyonshi ascetic always makes me think of the medieval christian monks that wore hair shirts and lived on top of a pillar so they wouldnโt get tempted by life
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@kyonshi ascetic always makes me think of the medieval christian monks that wore hair shirts and lived on top of a pillar so they wouldnโt get tempted by life
@berdandy see, that's absolutely right.
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Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.
Notably, for a game that otherwise has a very western idea of society, monks are taken directly from Chinese wuxia and plopped in with barely an explanation of how that works.
1/?
#ttrpg@kyonshi Very interesting.
There could be 2 character classes to fix this question: Monk (Western) and Monk (Martial Artist).
First one would be like the monks of The Name of the Rose and second one would be something like those of Wuxia films.
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@berdandy see, that's absolutely right.
@kyonshi I wanna see this class now
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@Printdevil @Taskerland it's always like that. I don't even know why I'm putting that much thought into all this.
Because if you don't, the players will immediately all want to play Monks, fight monks, and discuss the tv show Monk
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Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.
Notably, for a game that otherwise has a very western idea of society, monks are taken directly from Chinese wuxia and plopped in with barely an explanation of how that works.
1/?
#ttrpg@kyonshi that had me wondering if there were some western monks that were into martial arts/fighting but the only thing easily comkng up were the monastic orders of the crusades, and those would more regularly run as knights, fighters, warrior priests or Paladins, depending on what classes specifically the ge in question has available and what aesthetic the adventure/gm is going for.
I guess there was also fruar tuck. -
@kyonshi Satin pyjamas.
