As a total aside, in my own D&D, the Monks were martial artists of the three elements Air (and Numbers)- Fire (and Tme) -Water (and Thoughts) and each had a corresponding style of fighting. I worked out a whole book about them.

And in 15+ years of the campaign, the players never met one.

@Taskerland @kyonshi

@kyonshi I always thought it follows a similar pattern like the cleric did. So you start with a vampire hunter. Now how do we fit that into a world more medieval than Dracula's Victorian England? Make it a priest. Now, what else could this "cleric" do? Well, let's look at the bible and turn miracles into spells…

And now you're starting with Remo Williams. How do you put them next to knights and barbarians? Make him a shaolin! Well, what else could this 'monk' do? Let's look at some Buddhist legends… Speak with plants and animals?

They should've done this with more pop culture characters, like turn James Bond into the archetype for thieves or assassins.

Although, on second thought, no. Given that Kask is in play here, I'd rather not see how that would've looked back then…

Right now I keep thinking about calling the class "Ascetic" in my house rules, but I have the feeling that also doesn't capture all it should be.
By now I read a ton of wuxia fantasy though and I feel that might come the closest.
That is besides the phrase "martial artist", which in my opinion also should encompass fighters and clerics.

BECMI DnD actually DID rename it to "Mystic" but that didn't really stick, and also didn't really manage to get the essence of the class. (The name I think fits better to something like a psion)

9/?

@Printdevil I've certainly previously read it was created because someone wanted to play Remo. @Taskerland @kyonshi

@kyonshi Remember that this is the way it has been presented by the Gygax smear campaign against Arneson, when trying to rob Dave of royalties from D&D. Kask was part of that very one sided view of things. It's worth being a bit careful with the wording there.

That being said, it's very typical of how things worked back then to not really include much information about the setting. The Greyhawk book doesn't look like a setting book like we know them now either.

@mhd

@AndreasDavour @mhd yes, but I've read some interesting textual analyses about it and that seemed to be what happened. Arneson seemed to be a great mind for coming up with interesting play ideas, but from everything I've seen he struggled putting stuff into printed form.

(I say as someone who tried to run DNA/DOA)

(By the way what a world we live in that I can talk about a textual analysis if a DnD supplement and mean it)

@mhd assassins as a class were a bit of a misstep as originally written anyway. They were an NPC class that enterprising players could hire, but somehow they got made into a PC class.

@kyonshi Well, IMHO most classes were missteps, so I'm not throwing more shade than usual on the poor assassins

IIRC in their OD&D version they were even more inept than regular thieves but awesome at disguise, with only a 5/10% miss chance – and this not being based on level. So if the problem can be solved in any way with disguise, that would be preferred to thievery or fighting…

@Printdevil The list of things players have missed in your games is sadly extensive @Taskerland @kyonshi

@mhd @kyonshi
Also, poisons are a *super* equalizer, just have to be careful about where you use them, because witnesses go berserk.

Assassins are 2 levels lower in Thief skills, which is still pretty cheap compared to other classes (Level 3 = 3000 EP = just over Level 2 for Monk), and they get EP for assassinations, including the percentile-roll off-screen assassin table (use of which is not explained in the book). They always levelled *fast*.

Every edition nerfed them worse.

@mdhughes Ah, yes, was that the one where you get insane to-hit and damage bonuses as soon as someone in the same battle dares to use poison? I mean, fireballs okay, skeletal minions, sure, but poison? KOBOLD SMASH!

@kyonshi

Right now I keep thinking about calling the class "Ascetic" in my house rules, but I have the feeling that also doesn't capture all it should be.
By now I read a ton of wuxia fantasy though and I feel that might come the closest.
That is besides the phrase "martial artist", which in my opinion also should encompass fighters and clerics.

@kyonshi Under the influence of Shadowrun, I mentally shorthand it as "physical adept" but that doesn't help at all unless you are already Shadowrun-brained!

@wlonk in my games everyone always runs gunslinger adepts, so...

Right now I keep thinking about calling the class "Ascetic" in my house rules, but I have the feeling that also doesn't capture all it should be.
By now I read a ton of wuxia fantasy though and I feel that might come the closest.
That is besides the phrase "martial artist", which in my opinion also should encompass fighters and clerics.

@kyonshi ascetic always makes me think of the medieval christian monks that wore hair shirts and lived on top of a pillar so they wouldn’t get tempted by life

Monks in #dnd have a bit of an image problem, stemming mostly from being called specifically monk, and nobody quite agreeing to what that should mean and how it should be expressed in game terms.

Notably, for a game that otherwise has a very western idea of society, monks are taken directly from Chinese wuxia and plopped in with barely an explanation of how that works.

1/?
#ttrpg

@berdandy see, that's absolutely right.

@Printdevil @Taskerland it's always like that. I don't even know why I'm putting that much thought into all this.